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South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

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Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#501

Post by irq11 »

dmode wrote: post #345
svrb wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we can pretty safely conclude that any data saying blue cities have it worse than bumfuck nowhere towns must be misleading or manipulated. It just doesn't line up with what we know about education levels and compliance levels.

San Francisco is the second densest city in America. San Francisco has the lowest COVID transmission rates of any city, with recently a positive test rate under 1%. Masks matter.

San Francisco has imposed unrelenting, draconian business closures for most of 2020, and only barely allowed re-opening of a few classes of business in late summer before closing them again in the fall. The city has seen a mass exodus amongst the worst in the nation.

And yet, despite all of this, and despite some of the strictest mask rules in the world, and the highest rates of compliance...cases have almost quadrupled since mid-October:

https://covid-19.direct/county/CA/San%20Francisco

But sure, none of that matters: if cases go down, it’s because masks. If they go up, it’s because someone didn’t wear their mask right. There can be no other explanation.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#502

Post by mleonhard »

misiti3780 wrote: post #239
whalesalad wrote: post #12

My wife and I just moved from Orange County, CA to Detroit, MI this last August. We decided to drive the northern route. Heading through Vegas, Utah, Yellowstone and Montana. Then onward through the plains of North Dakota and Minnesota. Turning north we entered Wisconsin and finally the UP (Upper Peninsula) of Michigan. After a few days exploring we turned south to Detroit. In Vegas the concern for masks started to w…

I'm very pro-mask but cases are skyrocketing everywhere, even in countries like France and Italy where masking is the norm. I don't presume to know how to fix the issue, but virologist knew this was going to happen -- it is called seasonal forcing[1]. It's disturbing to me that there are people in the US that dont believe COVID-19 is real (I think you can blame the administration for that), but I'm not sure the spike…

Washington State and Maine also experience seasonal forcing. They started requiring masks in June & July.

From FT.com [1], here are the number of new confirmed Covid-19 cases, per million residents, averaged over the last 7 days:

- Maine: 130

- Washington State: 230

- Idaho: 740

- Montana: 1000

- South Dakota: 1600

From this data, I conclude that mask use is effective at reducing the spread of covid-19.

[1] https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-chart/?areas=eur&areas=usa&are...

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#503

Post by 9HZZRfNlpR »

roflulz wrote: post #279
zero_deg_kevin wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d call it a disease of experience, first and foremost. The US missed the worst of SARS-Cov1 and MERS, which were catastrophic in some parts of the world. East-Asian Democratic countries had public debates about what are and are not reasonable public health measures. They passed enabling laws, built public health infrastructure, and established cutting edge novel virus surveillance programs. The US did not. We were…

How do you explain certain states and cities doing so much better, even within the US? And other western countries, such as NZ, Canada, and Germany really beating the US in every metric possible? Experience is not the key here. Quality of leadership is

Is Germany really beating anything now? They sure did before but things have changed over here, the whole Europe is affected though.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#504

Post by dhruvmittal »

triceratops wrote: post #397
dhruvmittal wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The constitution on its own doesn't guarantee any freedoms, so we must look to the Bill of Rights. Does mask wearing fall under: - Freedom of speech? No. - Freedom of the press? No. - Freedom of religion? No. - Freedom of assembly? No. - Right to petition the government? No. - Right to bear arms? No. - Protection against housing soldiers in civilian homes? No. - Protection against unreasonable search and seizure? No.…

Err...isn't the Bill of Rights part of the constitution? It was added to the constitution through the amendment process, right?

Yes, but as the primary text of the constitution doesn't guarantee any rights, it's sufficient to list the rights supplied by amendments to cover "constitutional rights."

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#505

Post by dragonwriter »

clairity wrote: post #479
nwallin wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your opinion, has COVID-19 had any effect on interstate commerce? Or is interstate commerce the same as it was this time last year?

all commerce, including the interstate kind, has slowed down due to the pandemic response, but that certainly doesn't mean that the interstate commerce clause should be invoked for covid (or in many other cases that it has been employed by the federal gov't). that power should be reserved for things like collusive, coercive, and anti-competitive behavior, its intended purpose. for epidemiological concerns, the public…

> all commerce, including the interstate kind, has slowed down due to the pandemic response, but that certainly doesn't mean that the interstate commerce clause should be invoked for covid (or in many other cases that it has been employed by the federal gov't). that power should be reserved for things like collusive, coercive, and anti-competitive behavior, its intended purpose.

> for epidemiological concerns, the public health services act is the relevant federal legal framework, as @dragonwriter mentioned elsewhere.

The Public Health Services Act is almost entirely an exercise of Congressional power under the Commerce Clause. (Some bits of it may be grounded elsewhere, but that is the main source of authority for the Act.)

You can't really say it's the right statutory authority and say that the Commerce Clause should not be invoked in this context.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#506

Post by sidlls »

mattr47 wrote: post #373
chaostheory wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the SF Bay Area is much better than most of the country, it's still annoying seeing people here not use masks outside of their homes, or wear them improperly. With masks we can get back to normal relatively quickly, but people just need to wear them

Masks will not allow us to get back to normal more quickly. The only thing that will allow that is immunity through vaccinations. Countries other than the US have implemented strict mask & border controls still do not have a handle on the virus.

China doesn't seem to have a covid problem. Now, granted it's difficult to trust their official statements on anything because of how easily they lie thinking everyone else is too stupid to see through it. But I'd think if covid were actually a problem there word would get out eventually.

I understand they put some pretty severe restrictions in place initially, though. Probably far too strict for most of us in the west to truly consider. But now they don't need them, and people are more or less living normally.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#507

Post by dumbfoundded »

irq11 wrote: post #500
dumbfoundded wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cases are skyrocketing everywhere. While your statement is true, it's extremely misleading. Oregon is 47th place in terms of population adjusted total cases. In terms of number of absolute new cases, Oregon is 40th. Every state with fewer absolute new cases than Oregon is smaller with the exception of Lousiana. Oregon has done a fantastic job of handling Covid. (1) https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us…

It isn’t misleading in any way: the parent was talking about mask rules in Oregon, asserting that they make all the difference. Yet cases are going up, all over Oregon, and especially in the places with the most compliance. The fact that cases are going up all over the northern hemisphere - in places both with mask rules and without - should tell you something very important about the effectiveness of those rules.

I'm not sure why you're being purposely ignorant. Rules in Oregon have been relatively more strict so Oregon has had relatively fewer cases. Oregon lifted restrictions, opening up dining & gyms for example leading to an increase in cases. As a response, Oregon has reentered a lockdown.

What's so complicated?

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#508

Post by vkou »

salmon30salmon wrote: post #466
vkou wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> New Zealand is an island that, for all intents and purposes, closed their ports to human travel. Firstly, New Zealand is not closed to human travel. It has mandatory quarantine for inbound travelers. The US can do the same. It is in an even better situation to do so than New Zealand, because its economy is less dependant on tourism and imports. It would be utterly pointless, of course, because nearly anywhere in th…

It is also a problem of scale. New Zealand has really 2 truly international airports (Auckland and Christchurch). The United States has over 50. In 2017, the United States saw over ~70,000,000, tourists through her ports of entry, while New Zealand saw 3,700,000 . These statistics are for tourist entries, so they don't even include repatriating citizens who traveled internationally. To institute the same quarantine r…

The number of tests isn't the only relevant factor. Positivity is, as well. When positivity is near zero, either health authorities are incredibly, shockingly bad at picking who to test... Or Covid is not very prevalent in that community.

Per capita, the tourism numbers you cited are similar across the two countries. I am not sure what your point is.

> There is just no enforcement of quarantine

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. This is why the virus is out of control in the United States. Even when rules are put in place to control it's spread, enforcement of those rules is incredibly lax.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#509

Post by munificent »

cltby wrote: post #438
munificent wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3. Get a table indoors Keep in mind that restaurants are at significantly reduced capacity and those tables are now more widely spread apart. These guidelines mean you are much less likely to share airspace with strangers. Yes, it's not as safe as not going to a restaurant at all, but they are trying to balance mitigating risk while allowing some economic activity. It's a hard problem. The last time I drove through…

> if you aren't being 100% safe you're just doing pandemic theater Pandemic theater is a preference for the symbolic over the substantive. It's giving yourself a pass for risky behavior (bars, indoor dining) while sneering at others for actions that are far less impactful ("haha, dumb hicks don't wear masks at the gas station!"). The hicks aren't sick because they won't wear their masks. They are sick because they're…

> It's giving yourself a pass for risky behavior (bars, indoor dining)

Assuming that all indoor dining is created equal is the kind of black-and-white thinking I'm referring to. Look at how detailed the CDC guidance for restaurants is:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/organiza...

This is not business as usual.

Also, the way restaurants are patronized in Seattle is different from Central Washington, at least that I have witnessed. In Seattle, I never see crowds of people clustered together, but I have elsewhere.

> The hicks aren't sick because they won't wear their masks.

I haven't characterized anyone a hick, but these people are spreading COVID more because they are not following the guidance:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/17-cases-tw...

> they're doing the same exact thing as you, just more of it.

I don't know why it's necessary to clarify this, but yes, doing a more of a thing that carries non-zero risk is riskier. No one is arguing that Seattlites are at zero risk. Again, black-and-white thinking. The claim is that the way people in Seattle follow the guidelines has a lower total risk than the behavior of people elsewhere.

> It hardly matters that your tables are spread out, or that you wore your mask while waiting for your reservation.

According to the CDC it does.

> And I don't see why you should attack people for not wanting to make sacrifices that you yourself refused to.

I haven't stepped foot inside any building without wearing a mask the entire time since February. I haven't gone to a restaurant or bar (indoors or outdoors) at all. To the best of my recollection, I can count the number of buildings I've been inside on one hand.

The most recent restrictions in Washington don't affect me at all because I never loosened my behavior after the first wave in April. I'm going well above and beyond what's necessary in order to reduce not just my risk but that of the people I come into contact with.

Meanwhile, jackasses are throwing parties and protesting wearing masks and making it worse for everyone.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#510

Post by clairity »

dragonwriter wrote: post #505
clairity wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

all commerce, including the interstate kind, has slowed down due to the pandemic response, but that certainly doesn't mean that the interstate commerce clause should be invoked for covid (or in many other cases that it has been employed by the federal gov't). that power should be reserved for things like collusive, coercive, and anti-competitive behavior, its intended purpose. for epidemiological concerns, the public…

> all commerce, including the interstate kind, has slowed down due to the pandemic response, but that certainly doesn't mean that the interstate commerce clause should be invoked for covid (or in many other cases that it has been employed by the federal gov't). that power should be reserved for things like collusive, coercive, and anti-competitive behavior, its intended purpose. > for epidemiological concerns, the pu…

> "The Public Health Services Act is almost entirely an exercise of Congressional power under the Commerce Clause."

some quick research reveals that the federal quarantine powers of the PHSA are largely restricted to state and national borders. so that's indeed based (partly) in the commerce clause, protecting trade across borders from destabilizing forces. but the 5th & 14th amendments (due process and equal protection) also contribute, as does the necessary and proper clause (allowing the fed to use unenumerated powers to carry out its charter, and only its charter, when necessary and proper).

but a true national quarantine, where people are confined to homes or communities, and other proposed national measures (like a mask mandate) would require broader powers that go beyond the commerce clause, and that was the (unstated) common understanding from which i was arguing from before.

i still find this use of the commerce clause troubling, as it's just another stepping stone in the consolidation of power away from states to a future autocrat. the commerce clause is meant to curtail human-induced distortions on interborder trade, not pandemics.

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