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Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

reuters.com

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Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#81

Post by zimpenfish »

throwaway69123 wrote: post #76
barnacled wrote: post #68

This is utterly ridiculous. I live in the UK and have been renting for many years, I've lived at 15+ addresses and not at a single one could I have powered the car from home. Not one. The UK is small, cars are squeezed onto tiny roads and most people do on-street parking, i.e. you park where you can. When I last had a car I could only park around the corner from my flat (which was set far back from the road). Having…

Doesn’t the power come from the street? Seems like adding metered street parking wouldn’t be a big deal and a great source of revenue for gov to replace fuel tax that is lost

London has added a lot of free/cheap charging points but they're not necessarily in convenient places for where people live. I think you can get a subsidy for adding a fast charger to your house but for people in flats, that's probably not an option (and also doesn't help if you have to park 300m away because there's just no room any more.)

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#82

Post by anovikov »

Ma8ee wrote: post #73
anovikov wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But on the other hand, this IS indeed a super drastic action and we can't expect any nation on Earth apart from possibly, a few city-states like Singapore, to do as much in the same time frame. Petrol cars will be mainstay of transportation for about 40-50 years and will dominate new car sales for at least 20-30 years depending on the country. Anything but classic petrol and diesel cars will still hold tiny market sh…

You are way off. It took about 15 years to go from cities dominated by horse carriages to them being dominated by cars. It took longer in agriculture and rural areas. But the shift to electrical vehicles is trivial in comparison. Technically and economically we could easily prohibit new fossil fuelled cars by 2025. Sun and wind power is already much cheaper to install than coal powered plants, and once sun and wind p…

In the field of electricity generation, sure. Technology is there, apart from storage technology.

But, given still higher costs and range anxiety, it will be very difficult to convince most consumers to buy electric cars. It will be most probably only generational shift: people born before ~1990 will still buy petrol cars till they die out, and younger generations will progressively shift, having different habits. It will take whole century to fully switch to electric vehicles in developed countries - and lack of reliable electric grid will make it in places like Africa even slower.

An even harder, and even larger part of the story is industrial heat (needs to be very reliable and cheap), and residential heating (needs to be very, very cheap and available in large volumes). No good non-fossil solutions here exist.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#83

Post by barnacled »

LatteLazy wrote: post #30

This perfectly epitomises the uk (and the rest of the worlds) attitude to global warming: * it's a non binding commitment to do something but not for at least a decade * it's not enough even if it does happen * it will be too late by then (it probably already is for anything but drastic action) * it's totally at the whim of future governments who will be no more willing to spend the money/time/popularity than the cur…

This comment perfectly epitomises the 'climate crisis' extinction rebellion Greta Thunberg school of response to climate issues.

Firstly - any response to climate change that does not include China and really India and other emerging economies too is more or less useless. Why should we deny such countries the benefits of full industrialisation?

Secondly - while in some respects you are correct, looking at CO2 numbers some kind of drastic action seems to be required, it also leaves unanswered the question of 'at what cost'. During the covid19 situation we've seen the impact of shutting down parts of the economy on GDP. That naturally always translates into deaths, and the kind of economic impact such drastic action would entail would likely run into millions of deaths, many of them far away in poorer nations receiving less govt aid (as with covid!)

I think the whole 'nothing is enough the world will end!!' mentality does nothing but put those who are inclined to care into a state of deep depression and anxiety and those who are inclined to deny climate change into a better position to argue that the other side are being ridiculous. It does NOT help.

The correct approach is a practical middle ground where we try to do what we can.

In any case this govt response does somewhat epitomise the 'climate hysterics' mentality in that it is hugely impractical, ignores many questions of trade-offs and impact as if there were none to be answered and is unilateral enough to be meaningless in the wider global context.

Keep in mind that if one country decides to take drastic action which tanks its economy, do you think other countries are likely to follow suit or rather elect govts that entirely unwind all and any climate action?

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#84

Post by roenxi »

djmobley wrote: post #43
LatteLazy wrote: post #30

This perfectly epitomises the uk (and the rest of the worlds) attitude to global warming: * it's a non binding commitment to do something but not for at least a decade * it's not enough even if it does happen * it will be too late by then (it probably already is for anything but drastic action) * it's totally at the whim of future governments who will be no more willing to spend the money/time/popularity than the cur…

I think you’ve completely missed the point of what is a very reasonable and forward-thinking signalling exercise. You cannot have sudden cliff-edges in policies (like banning the sale of new ICE vehicles) that would put thousands, if not millions of people out of jobs. You need to send signals like this to the market well in advance so they can invest and plan ahead.

A fair point. But if they can't have a cliff today there isn't any reason to think they can have a cliff in 2030. If they were serious could put a quota in place today and start tightening it, or a quota and a timeline for tightening it. Maybe they are already doing that, I don't know.

Announcing radical change in a different government's term is standard political theatrics. All that matters is the actions they take now.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#85

Post by numpad0 »

trollied wrote: post #2

Discussion from 3 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25101766

Two top comments there are made by one same account and the topmost is about “anti-EV sentiment [being] so strongly held”.

Understandable a dupe had to be made, can’t discuss where these robots prevail.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#86

Post by echelon »

ainiriand wrote: post #66
djmobley wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’ve completely missed the point of what is a very reasonable and forward-thinking signalling exercise. You cannot have sudden cliff-edges in policies (like banning the sale of new ICE vehicles) that would put thousands, if not millions of people out of jobs. You need to send signals like this to the market well in advance so they can invest and plan ahead.

There are many things that can be done, in this very same moment. The problem is the high cost in political resources that no one is willing to pay. Some examples: - Start by implementing a odd/even rule for license plates in big cities, even full bans on weekends. - Tax and/or de-subsidize the meat industry. - Incentivize the installation of wind or other renewable energies. Energies with no CO2 emissions, like nucl…

> - Start by implementing a odd/even rule for license plates in big cities, even full bans on weekends.

> - Tax and/or de-subsidize the meat industry.

And just like that, you've been voted straight out of office. Better luck next life connecting to the electorate.

You can't do those things. Humanity is a distributed consensus problem. Climate change presents an interesting change in the fitness landscape topology ahead.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#87

Post by mcjiggerlog »

cmdkeen wrote: post #52
ChrisRR wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. My previous flat had parking about 50 metres away. The previous, people just parked anywhere on the road. I bet they won't be installing charging points at every random location on a road that anyone could possible park on

I live in Edinburgh, one of the more car-unfriendly cities in the UK and recently bought a Model 3. I park on the street, the city has gone nowhere with its plans to provide on street chargers. Yet it isn't a problem, despite a relative lack of public chargers compared to elsewhere in the country it is still perfectly feasible. I've tweaked my habits to go to the supermarket that has a charger in the car park, when p…

How do these public charging stations work in terms of payment? Do you have to activate it using a credit/debit card first and then just leave it plugged in?

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#88

Post by barnacled »

zimpenfish wrote: post #77
barnacled wrote: post #68

This is utterly ridiculous. I live in the UK and have been renting for many years, I've lived at 15+ addresses and not at a single one could I have powered the car from home. Not one. The UK is small, cars are squeezed onto tiny roads and most people do on-street parking, i.e. you park where you can. When I last had a car I could only park around the corner from my flat (which was set far back from the road). Having…

> i.e. you park where you can > off-street parking is a luxury here that only a small % of people have That would indicate there's just too many cars and we should be prioritising public transport improvements. > outside of London public transport is extremely expensive, very very unreliable 100% agree - it's always a shock when I go up north and have to use public transport - but that's why we need to divert money f…

There are many places where public transport simply isn't practical. I also do not see how investment is going to fix a lot of the issues - for example in my home town in the SW of England (rural area), the already highly subsidised + regulated bus service was consistently late and unreliable. Not to mention didn't actually go to many places in the local area.

Perhaps increased public transportation is part of the issue but if you consider the scale of the issue and the numbers involved not to mention the fact you're now entirely privileging rich people with off-street parking (class/economic issues there) who CAN get electric cars, and do all of this in 9 years (or maybe 19 let's say if people are buying 2nd hand) while bankrupting every single (non-electric) car-related industry shortly after one of the biggest economic shocks of the modern era AND you still need to provide considerably more infrastructure no matter how you slice the pie it's still equally as huge a logistical challenge.

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#89

Post by LatteLazy »

djmobley wrote: post #43
LatteLazy wrote: post #30

This perfectly epitomises the uk (and the rest of the worlds) attitude to global warming: * it's a non binding commitment to do something but not for at least a decade * it's not enough even if it does happen * it will be too late by then (it probably already is for anything but drastic action) * it's totally at the whim of future governments who will be no more willing to spend the money/time/popularity than the cur…

I think you’ve completely missed the point of what is a very reasonable and forward-thinking signalling exercise. You cannot have sudden cliff-edges in policies (like banning the sale of new ICE vehicles) that would put thousands, if not millions of people out of jobs. You need to send signals like this to the market well in advance so they can invest and plan ahead.

The first time a government announced they would take action but not for a decade, it signalled action would be taken. This is the 1000th time a government has said "no action today but maybe in a decade". That signals no action. That's the same signal markets have been given for several decades now.

I am happy to admit this is a complex issue, one that needs a global solution, an expensive one, maybe an unsolvable one.

But we also have to admit that so far no action has been taken. And this isn't action either.

That's what I'm asking for here: let's all be honest for this thread and admit this is worthless and we're running out of time and we either need to make hard choices OR admit we're not going to fix it...

Re: Britain to ban new petrol cars and vans by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

#90

Post by terryf »

conjectures wrote: post #65
LatteLazy wrote: post #30

This perfectly epitomises the uk (and the rest of the worlds) attitude to global warming: * it's a non binding commitment to do something but not for at least a decade * it's not enough even if it does happen * it will be too late by then (it probably already is for anything but drastic action) * it's totally at the whim of future governments who will be no more willing to spend the money/time/popularity than the cur…

On this specific issue, what more could be done, really? Bring the ban to 2025? 2022? One can't simply expect mass production to switch that fast. UK has already tightened emissions rules on vehicles and VED taxes more polluting cars more heavily. They could, and probably will, ratchet things more. The right response on this policy is to say: great thanks Boris, you can clearly see the potential in green tech, now co…

The only thing that has a chance of working is thinking about it a bit differently - governments should heavily subsidize building solar energy plants. On the scale of "much more than we need". Then they should also heavily subsidize carbon capture and possibly also tech to turn it into liquid fuels again.

Getting petrol cars off the road is just not going to happen on the time scale it's needed. If the 10 years until the ban would be spent building enough solar, carbon capture and fuel generation, we'd be in a much better state. We'd literally have a knob that controls the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.

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