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China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

latimes.com

11–20 of 88 posts

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#11
post #3

The reason they continue to do this is because they know without doubt other Countries will not treat their fishing vessels in the same way. There is zero consequences for their actions and they have zero reason to change their policy. You might say "the consequence is that they look bad", but they don't, at least not to the people they care about - mainlanders. They own and/or control the news media in mainland Chin…

Indonesia has sunk several Chinese fishing vessels[1][2].

[1] https://www.todayonline.com/world/asia/indonesia-sinks-41-il... [2] https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/1672020/indonesia-sinks-51...

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#12
post #3

The reason they continue to do this is because they know without doubt other Countries will not treat their fishing vessels in the same way. There is zero consequences for their actions and they have zero reason to change their policy. You might say "the consequence is that they look bad", but they don't, at least not to the people they care about - mainlanders. They own and/or control the news media in mainland Chin…

>will not treat their fishing vessels in the same way.

Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, Japan, Taiwan, South/North Korea have all seized Chinese fishing vessels before. Some recently. These countries also regularly seize each other's illegal fishing boats, the entire region is an overlapping web maritime disputes. The difference is China is a juggernaut, larger in population and economy than all other claimants combined. 14 Trillion GDP = capabilities to vastly out muscle everyone else. Same story with SCS islands, where China was _responding_ to other claimants reclamation and weaponization efforts. But Chinese reclaiming at Chinese scale will crush everyone else.

The fishing parallel is growing Chinese coast guard and structuring of maritime militia means Chinese fishing vessels get better support and more lenient treatment from other coat guards as Chinese force balance grows. Recent Chinese SCS skirmishes are relatively peaceful compared to others, whose mutual clashes frequently escalate to bloodshed because small peer countries can escalate and be brutal to each other. Obviously such reports rarely gets attention in western reporting, nor that per capita China underfishes, or fishing fleets from other wealthier per capita countries is sustained through foreign slave labour, whereas China's is just... cheap Chinese labour.

China SCS Monroe doctrine is balancing from this perspective. Philippines finally agreed to "cooperate" with China on SCS oil exploration, setting up frameworks for other members. RCEP this week without US or India. Short of war with USN, it's just a matter of time before China tames the SCS. For context, this is newly projected growth of PLA Navy 14th five-year plan for 2025. Only surface combatants.

https://preview.redd.it/yxsbgotn6kz51.jpg?width=1024&auto=we...

In the next 5 years, China will build approximately entire Japanese Navy in tonnage. It will do so with ~2% of GDP in defense spending, basically what Trump wants NATO members to comit. And as Australia, Japan, Korea are setting record high defense budget growth, China will be increasing national defense by 6.6% this year, lowest in decades. This is the fundamental reality of disportionate Chinese scale and industrial capability, even modest spending means the kind of acquisitions that will make neighbours shit bricks and US worry over hegemony. The alternative is... China not spending money a reasonable amount on defense and modernization, not enforcing her claims, which is a ridiculous expectation.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#13
post #3

The reason they continue to do this is because they know without doubt other Countries will not treat their fishing vessels in the same way. There is zero consequences for their actions and they have zero reason to change their policy. You might say "the consequence is that they look bad", but they don't, at least not to the people they care about - mainlanders. They own and/or control the news media in mainland Chin…

There are many examples of different countries shooting Chinese fishing boats.

This is just the first example but you can find many more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3lkM4t8AaA

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#14
post #5
post #4

It turns out that many of China's territorial claims in the South China Sea are simply the result of errors in translations and cartography. They have no legitimate basis in law or history. http://cimsec.org/chinas-claim-spratly-islands-just-mistake/...

No country has any “legitimate” claims to any land either.

Oh ya indeed that's why there are still tons of territory under dispute as claimed by multiple countries.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_disputes

Many are claimed by the US as well.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#15
post #8
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No country has any “legitimate” claims to any land either.

Just like you have no “legitimate” “claim” to your smartphone, hand it over. Conquest isn’t the only way countries gain territory by a long shot, and whataboutism can’t justify what China’s doing today either.

A better point would be that the current CCP regime in Beijing has no legitimate claim to be any kind of government with any legal claim over any territory whatsoever.

An unelected government is not a government, it's just a group of thugs who happen to have control over a capital city.

If China has any sort of legitimate government at all it's the one in Taiwan which was at least elected by somebody. But really, mainland China has no government, and the CCP should not be talked to or negotiated with as if they are a government.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#16
just go to youtube and search for " fires at fishing boats". That is international law at work - ie. the law of sheer force where stronger one is the right one - who has the [bigger] gun and/or closer to home fires at the one with no (or smaller) gun who is farther from home.

That reminds about a friend who served in USSR coast guard and was telling stories back then how they were harassing Japanese fishermen who were illegally fishing in USSR waters - instead of shooting though, they would usually shake down the fishermen for various goodies.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#18
post #7
post #3

The reason they continue to do this is because they know without doubt other Countries will not treat their fishing vessels in the same way. There is zero consequences for their actions and they have zero reason to change their policy. You might say "the consequence is that they look bad", but they don't, at least not to the people they care about - mainlanders. They own and/or control the news media in mainland Chin…

Good analysis. Realistically, no entity, government or otherwise is taking any concrete steps to say no to China in the south China Sea. Doing "drive bys" is hardly actual action, like say dismantling a Chinese base made in international waters. THAT would be concrete action, and I bet they would get all upset but ultimately do nothing (unless it's too Australia, in which case they'll find some other product to ban).…

One very simple action that we should be doing is changing the name of the "South China Sea" to something else.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#19
post #4

It turns out that many of China's territorial claims in the South China Sea are simply the result of errors in translations and cartography. They have no legitimate basis in law or history. http://cimsec.org/chinas-claim-spratly-islands-just-mistake/...

PRC SCS claims is based on Cairo Declaration in 1943, San Francisco Treaty in 1951, where illegal Japanese conquests including SCS features went to ROK which went to PRC after PRC replaced ROK in UN. These are legally inherited territorial claims recognized postwar but conveniently omitted in all the garbage propaganda reporting for current geopolitics. It in terms of legitimacy, no one in the region has stronger claims than the PRC, period. And incidentally, since these are _inherited_ claims, i.e., none are manufactured by CCP for expansionism, CCP actions in SCS should logically be interpreted as defensive. One of the fundamental job of the state is to protect territorial integrity.

The entire historic claims non sense is for the purpose of rebuking PCA ruling, since UNCLOS member states can opt out of compulsory UNCLOS arbitration as part of ratification Which China did because China only acceded to UNCLOS based on condition that territorial claims would be settled bilaterally. Another point conveniently omitted for current geopolitics. The point is, Chinese claims are as legitimate, as are _other_ claimants, but China more so, at least according to customary law. At the end of the day, none of it matters, because possessions is 9/10th of the law, and China possesses her claims.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#20

Is there any hope that the recent RCEP agreements would help the situation, or was this simply ignored during negotiations?

Now with RCEP behind them ASEAN nations and China can now focus on the "Code of Conduct" in the south china sea.
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