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Why I teach vim

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Re: Why I teach vim

#161

Post by rixed »

camgunz wrote: post #160
greggman3 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious if any vim user has ever been able to see the benefits of other environments. I know I have never been able to see the benefits of vim. Part of me wants to give a try for 3-6 months just to prove to myself that it's all bullshit and that vim is just another editor. In any case. For a long time I was a fan of my editor of choice, slickedit. It definitely has a few features I use for which I don't know the…

I'll bite; I'm real good w/ Vim. My thesis, which is a borderline polemic, is that if Vim doesn't suit your needs you are doing it wrong. If your program/language/environment needs a smart editor, you've built or chosen a program/language/environment that is too complex, and an IDE won't ever solve that fundamental problem. I get we don't always get to choose these things (wh o hasn't had to learn React, Typescript,…

Just to reassure you, you are not alone and I share this feeling exactly. It would worry me considerably if I could not use a generic text editor to work on some project. I would feel that the battle against accidental complexity was lost right from the start.

Fortunately, it never occurred, even when complex Java or Javascript frameworks were involved and coworkers thought specialized IDE were mandatory.

Re: Why I teach vim

#162

Post by bananamerica »

Geminidog wrote: post #138
bananamerica wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emacs is not an IDE, it’s a multipurpose tool with many of the same features commonly associated with IDEs. Spacemacs and Doom Emacs (my recommendation) are highly useful distributions that make a lot easier to achieve that goal. But, even so, Emacs will still not be an actual IDE like those made by JetBrains. You sacrifice some specificity for a world of flexibility. An IDE-like Vim would be a negation of everything…

>Emacs is not an IDE No it's not. Why are you telling me something I never said? I believe you are utterly mistaken to believe that I hold this opinion. >If you really need an IDE, just use one. >I don’t see any point in that. You don't see the point because you completely missed the point. I want an IDE that is as lightweight as vim/emacs and as powerful as a Jetbrains IDE and lives on the console. So right now if I…

> No it's not. Why are you telling me something I never said? I believe you are utterly mistaken to believe that I hold this opinion.

For clarity maybe? Relax dude. You are not on trial.

Re: Why I teach vim

#163

Post by mercer »

jdrek1 wrote: post #95
mercer wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll name one use case where Vim's approach helps me out a lot: macros. Quite often I need to edit a whole bunch of lines of code/data in a similar way. simply being able to repeat a particular set of 'motions' x times, or on whatever line I'm one, has often proven quite useful. I'm sure that many people don't really need to do this much, but for me it's probably something that crops up daily (when I'm working), at l…

That's a reason I can get behind. I agree though, most people probably don't need that, but in such cases it's great to have a tool like that available. Thanks!

I'd say that does illustrate why I chose to just get proficient in Vim though. There are enough of these kinds of scenarios where having it available is very useful. But if you don't know Vim, you wouldn't bother learning it for just them.

For example, I couldn't imagine using a browser without Vim keybindings anymore. I wouldn't have learned how to use any kind of shortcut/keyboard-only extension, but since I already used Vim it was a no-brainer.

It's a lot of little benefits here and there, and I think taking a bit of time to get comfortable with it would even benefit no-programmers who do a lot of text editing. Plus geek cred ;).

Re: Why I teach vim

#164

Post by tomhoward »

bitcoinmoney wrote: post #102
tomhoward wrote: post #97

I'm a Vi/Vim user since 2000, when I started transitioning from my ISP junior tech support job into a corporate support/sysadmin job. Vi was what everyone used, so that's what I was taught. I was just shown the basic 5-10 key commands, then I was on my own. Life got a whole lot easier when I invested about $15 in a Vi cheat sheet coffee mug. Never looked back.

Link to the cheat sheet and coffee mug?

Here it is [1].

I just found it in the back of my crockery cabinet! Looks like it's stayed in amongst my possessions for the nearly 20 years since I got it, through several house moves and stints in storage. It's going back on my desk now.

I can't find any the same as this when searching for it online now, but this seems the closest [2].

I like the simple text design much more than the coloured keyboard layout [3]; much more in keeping with the vi ethos.

[1] https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ngj8wt96ld1di0q/AABcpi8fuQ9hUkIP-...

[2] https://www.cafepress.com/mf/10388170/vi-reference_mugs?prod...

[3] https://www.zazzle.com.au/vim_cheat_sheet_coffee_mug-1686145...

Re: Why I teach vim

#165

Post by sergius »

gen220 wrote: post #112
greggman3 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious if any vim user has ever been able to see the benefits of other environments. I know I have never been able to see the benefits of vim. Part of me wants to give a try for 3-6 months just to prove to myself that it's all bullshit and that vim is just another editor. In any case. For a long time I was a fan of my editor of choice, slickedit. It definitely has a few features I use for which I don't know the…

From my perspective there are two sticky elements to vim, where once you’re accustomed to exploiting them, you find it very difficult to leave. The first (chronologically speaking, for most people) is modal editing. Most popular editors today support vim bindings. So this bulwark is gradually eroding. The second is the automation. Any piece of your workflow can be captured and remapped to a couple keystrokes. Some ot…

And don't forget regex uses!

Re: Why I teach vim

#166

Post by IshKebab »

wander_homer wrote: post #128
IshKebab wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Modal editing is not hard. ... Not harder than learning German or English or Chinese Mandarin. Oh sure, it's not hard at all when compared to something really hard ! > Do you believe that if people in Germany speak german fluently they are trying to signal anything to others? No they speak German because that's the easiest option for communicating with other people. Vim is not the easiest option for text editing. T…

>Oh sure, it's not hard at all when compared to something really hard! I guess the point is that it's not as hard as many people make it seem. I switched from Sublime Text to vim and in a matter of one or two days I felt comfortable editing text with it and in contrast to other editors the learning curve quickly flattened, because you're actually learning a rather simplistic language with grammar and a small vocabula…

> What is the easiest option then?

A non-modal editor like VSCode.

Re: Why I teach vim

#167

Post by greggman3 »

gen220 wrote: post #112
greggman3 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious if any vim user has ever been able to see the benefits of other environments. I know I have never been able to see the benefits of vim. Part of me wants to give a try for 3-6 months just to prove to myself that it's all bullshit and that vim is just another editor. In any case. For a long time I was a fan of my editor of choice, slickedit. It definitely has a few features I use for which I don't know the…

From my perspective there are two sticky elements to vim, where once you’re accustomed to exploiting them, you find it very difficult to leave. The first (chronologically speaking, for most people) is modal editing. Most popular editors today support vim bindings. So this bulwark is gradually eroding. The second is the automation. Any piece of your workflow can be captured and remapped to a couple keystrokes. Some ot…

> Any piece of your workflow can be captured and remapped to a couple keystrokes

How is different than recordable macros in 90% of the other editors out there? (vs programmable macros).

Can you give me an example you use regularly

Re: Why I teach vim

#168

Post by Geminidog »

bananamerica wrote: post #162
Geminidog wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Emacs is not an IDE No it's not. Why are you telling me something I never said? I believe you are utterly mistaken to believe that I hold this opinion. >If you really need an IDE, just use one. >I don’t see any point in that. You don't see the point because you completely missed the point. I want an IDE that is as lightweight as vim/emacs and as powerful as a Jetbrains IDE and lives on the console. So right now if I…

> No it's not. Why are you telling me something I never said? I believe you are utterly mistaken to believe that I hold this opinion. For clarity maybe? Relax dude. You are not on trial.

>Relax dude. You are not on trial.

Uh. I am relaxed. I'm trying to get you to relax. You should be more self aware as you're actually the one that kind of seems on edge with your initial post.

You barge into this thread with a tone that is dismissive, opinionated and wrong. You're telling me to "just use an IDE" and also that "emacs is not an IDE." I'm just telling you to stop doing that.

I usually won't tell someone to "relax" or that they're "not on trial" because it's kind of insulting and dismissive. It's also a strategic move used to flip the script to make another party seem overly emotional.

Just Read the thread next time before you respond so aggressively with your opinionated views.

>For clarity maybe?

Nah not for clarity, this is a lie. People aren't stupid and they know why they say the things they say.

You said it because you believed that I held that opinion and you wanted to dominate the conversation by telling I'm wrong. You made a mistake and you didn't really read my post. Don't do it again.

Re: Why I teach vim

#169

Post by lazyant »

pampa wrote: post #43
apocolyps6 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "suffering" has honestly been overblown by jokes about not being able to quit on one side and the mythologizing of the leet ninja 10x programmer who is only bound by his typing speed and can't waste time reaching for the mouse, on the other side. It continues to surprise me why people have such strong opinions about someone else's editor choice. My current theory is vim users are like vegans/gluten free/paleo/etc…

I suffer every time a linux distro has nano as the default editor. Cant save a file, cant exit, have to read the two bottom rows and figure out those alien shortcuts. yuck

Those alien "shortcuts" are Emacs bindings, the same as in a Bash shell, or a Cisco router etc.

Re: Why I teach vim

#170

Post by Viliam1234 »

pritovido wrote: post #70
rgoulter wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's mostly about accepting the (evidence-free) premise that modal editing is actually a good thing. Kakoune's development has started fairly recently. The oldest tags on its GitHub repo are for 2018. I think this defies "people want to continue the legacy of actually-not-that-great thing because I had do suffer, so other people should too". I think you'd only put into making/promoting Kakoune if you genuinely thou…

The difference between a modal editor and a GUI one is that in the GUI one, the commands are organized in the menu and you access this mode(the menu display mode) by clicking instead of pressing a key. In fact, if you use shorcuts, they are the same thing. Modal editing is not hard. I learned vim and emacs without problems. Step by step, focusing on what was the next thing useful for me and learning it after that. No…

If the commands are well organized in the menu, any fool can find them. But remembering dozens of shortcuts clearly signals you know more than those who do not remember them. How would people recognize true experts if we all switched to less arcane versions of Notepad?
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