Why I teach vim • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I teach vim

#91

Post by IshKebab » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 12:24 PM UTC

pritovido wrote: post #70

rgoulter wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's mostly about accepting the (evidence-free) premise that modal editing is actually a good thing. Kakoune's development has started fairly recently. The oldest tags on its GitHub repo are for 2018. I think this defies "people want to continue the legacy of actually-not-that-great thing because I had do suffer, so other people should too". I think you'd only put into making/promoting Kakoune if you genuinely thou…

The difference between a modal editor and a GUI one is that in the GUI one, the commands are organized in the menu and you access this mode(the menu display mode) by clicking instead of pressing a key. In fact, if you use shorcuts, they are the same thing. Modal editing is not hard. I learned vim and emacs without problems. Step by step, focusing on what was the next thing useful for me and learning it after that. No…

> Modal editing is not hard. ... Not harder than learning German or English or Chinese Mandarin.

Oh sure, it's not hard at all when compared to something really hard!

> Do you believe that if people in Germany speak german fluently they are trying to signal anything to others?

No they speak German because that's the easiest option for communicating with other people. Vim is not the easiest option for text editing.

Terrible analogy.

Re: Why I teach vim

#92

Post by Geminidog » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 2:52 PM UTC

pvg wrote: post #40

Geminidog wrote: post #3

I really wish there was a batteries included vim-like console editor with all the power of the jet brains suite of IDEs and convenience and lightness of vim. As it stands right now I end up using both an IDE and vim. Maybe emacs is the answer but honestly if I look past all the yak-shaving to get emacs to the power level of an IDE does it really get to the point where it has everything that say CLion has?

does it really get to the point where it has everything that say CLion has? No, it doesn't. There are probably other reasons to try emacs but 'as capable as a JetBrains IDE' is not among them. As it stands right now I end up using both an IDE and vim. If you think of it not in terms of text editing but as "tool that operates on files" and "tool that operates on 'projects'", it makes more sense that many (most?) peopl…

Yeah I can think of it that way. But I don't want to. I want a batteries included ide as lightweight as vim and as powerful as Clion, not two tools.

Currently you see a bunch of programmers divided into two camps. Those that prefer the vimish style and those that don't want to deal with the yak shaving and prefer tons of features.

The thing is these qualities are not actually tradeoffs in principle they are only tradeoffs by circumstance.

Re: Why I teach vim

#93

Post by Geminidog » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 2:59 PM UTC

arendtio wrote: post #27

Geminidog wrote: post #3

I really wish there was a batteries included vim-like console editor with all the power of the jet brains suite of IDEs and convenience and lightness of vim. As it stands right now I end up using both an IDE and vim. Maybe emacs is the answer but honestly if I look past all the yak-shaving to get emacs to the power level of an IDE does it really get to the point where it has everything that say CLion has?

Recently, I tried VS Code with the vim plugin and didn't find it to be too bad. Then again it isn't lightweight, but I think part of the problem is, that every programming eco-system has its own tools and one-size-fits-all solutions are unlikely to be small ;-) However, it VS Code didn't convince me to give up my regular tmux+vim combination.

Well vscode is written on electron. Your editor in that case is a full blown browser basically.

I see no reason why something as lightweight as vim or emacs can be configured to be as powerful as vscode while being much more lightweight.

Re: Why I teach vim

#94

Post by Geminidog » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:00 PM UTC

cutler wrote: post #75

Geminidog wrote: post #3

I really wish there was a batteries included vim-like console editor with all the power of the jet brains suite of IDEs and convenience and lightness of vim. As it stands right now I end up using both an IDE and vim. Maybe emacs is the answer but honestly if I look past all the yak-shaving to get emacs to the power level of an IDE does it really get to the point where it has everything that say CLion has?

IDEA Vim?

I mean the ide does have vim emulation but that's not what I'm thinking about. Try the other direction:

Vim IDEA

Re: Why I teach vim

#95

Post by jdrek1 » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:24 PM UTC

mercer wrote: post #83

jdrek1 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think your take is wrong. I have yet to see any actual argument from the vim/emacs crowd. I'm genuinely curious about what makes them defend their editor choice that heavily but whenever I ask them for their reasons all I get is a "modal editing is great because modal editing is great". I can somewhat understand "don't have to touch the mouse" as that's a personal preference for them (even though IDEs have ke…

I'll name one use case where Vim's approach helps me out a lot: macros. Quite often I need to edit a whole bunch of lines of code/data in a similar way. simply being able to repeat a particular set of 'motions' x times, or on whatever line I'm one, has often proven quite useful. I'm sure that many people don't really need to do this much, but for me it's probably something that crops up daily (when I'm working), at l…

That's a reason I can get behind. I agree though, most people probably don't need that, but in such cases it's great to have a tool like that available. Thanks!

Re: Why I teach vim

#96

Post by jdrek1 » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:41 PM UTC

AlchemistCamp wrote: post #89

jdrek1 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think your take is wrong. I have yet to see any actual argument from the vim/emacs crowd. I'm genuinely curious about what makes them defend their editor choice that heavily but whenever I ask them for their reasons all I get is a "modal editing is great because modal editing is great". I can somewhat understand "don't have to touch the mouse" as that's a personal preference for them (even though IDEs have ke…

Here's my story: I used Notepad++ for a while, Sublime Text 2 for a couple of years, Atom for a bit, then Webstorm and VS Code before settling into primarily using VIM or VIM mode for every editor I work with. The real instigating factor was severe RSI. Three and a half years ago, it hurt even to brush my teeth. The damage was primarily from using trackpads, mice and worst of all mobile phones, but it was much to lat…

Damn sorry, I hope it gets better for you. In that case I can definitely see how not having to leave the keyboard is of upmost importance.

Re: Why I teach vim

#97

Post by tomhoward » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:42 PM UTC

I'm a Vi/Vim user since 2000, when I started transitioning from my ISP junior tech support job into a corporate support/sysadmin job. Vi was what everyone used, so that's what I was taught. I was just shown the basic 5-10 key commands, then I was on my own. Life got a whole lot easier when I invested about $15 in a Vi cheat sheet coffee mug. Never looked back.

Re: Why I teach vim

#98

Post by ufmace » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 3:57 PM UTC

jdrek1 wrote: post #56

pvg wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not really the same thing, compared to vi[m], emacs is statistically dead. And there are already lots of people who're well into their careers in academia and industry who aren't users of either. My own contrarian and probably equally wrong take is that it's mostly about accepting the (evidence-free) premise that modal editing is actually a good thing. It's hard, you suffer but lots of smart people tell you i…

I don't think your take is wrong. I have yet to see any actual argument from the vim/emacs crowd. I'm genuinely curious about what makes them defend their editor choice that heavily but whenever I ask them for their reasons all I get is a "modal editing is great because modal editing is great". I can somewhat understand "don't have to touch the mouse" as that's a personal preference for them (even though IDEs have ke…

It does all come down to personal preference in the end. I can only describe why I prefer Vim. I specifically do not recommend it to anybody else - it's hard enough to learn that you have to decide on your own that you want to make the effort.

In my opinion, the real drag of conventional text editing is constantly having to move between the keyboard and mouse. That's a much more physically and mentally expensive mode switch than any editor mode switch. It always tends to hurt my focus on whatever I'm working on. Vim feels like I have all of the movement types in muscle memory, and it just seems to happen automatically.

I know all editors have keyboard shortcuts. I think they're all much more awkward and inefficient than Vim though. Too many steps and too much thought for "how do I move the cursor over there without using the mouse". When it gets beyond the basics, the keyboard shortcuts either don't exist at all, or vary widely between editors. How do I split a view into 2 sections and switch between them with only the keyboard in VS Code? Beats me. Oh it may be possible, but if so, it's probably different in IDEA, Eclipse, full VS, Sublime Text, etc. Vim is always Vim.

I also find most of the IDE features for live error checking and auto-complete to be more distracting than helpful, at least for dynamic languages. It's subtly annoying and harmful to my focus for my editor to be constantly trying to tell me about the "syntax errors" in code I'm not finished writing yet, or to constantly pop up completely wrong autocomplete suggestions. I prefer to run these checks or unit tests explicitly on command, when I'm ready for it.

Re: Why I teach vim

#99

Post by leppr » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 4:00 PM UTC

dan00 wrote: post #30

apocolyps6 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "suffering" has honestly been overblown by jokes about not being able to quit on one side and the mythologizing of the leet ninja 10x programmer who is only bound by his typing speed and can't waste time reaching for the mouse, on the other side. It continues to surprise me why people have such strong opinions about someone else's editor choice. My current theory is vim users are like vegans/gluten free/paleo/etc…

> It continues to surprise me why people have such strong opinions about someone else's editor choice. I think because people identify themselves too much with their editor, programming language or whatever else choice. Everyone wants to think of themselves as the smart ones, only making objective rational choices, so everyone else making other choices has to be stupid. If now someone criticises their choice or argue…

There is a very rational and not emotion-driven incentive to spread your subjective preferences.

For vim: plug-in development effort. Nowadays we have to recycle VSCode ones because Vim is seen as too niche to develop for it directly.

For vegan: meal availability in shop and restaurants.

For Android vs iOS: app availability.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28820444-the-elephant-in...

(edit: I'm basically paraphrasing eindiran's argument)

Re: Why I teach vim

#100

Post by greggman3 » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 4:01 PM UTC

gtsop wrote: post #67

apocolyps6 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "suffering" has honestly been overblown by jokes about not being able to quit on one side and the mythologizing of the leet ninja 10x programmer who is only bound by his typing speed and can't waste time reaching for the mouse, on the other side. It continues to surprise me why people have such strong opinions about someone else's editor choice. My current theory is vim users are like vegans/gluten free/paleo/etc…

> My current theory is vim users are like vegans/gluten free/paleo/etc, in that its a personal choice that some are public about. This is not a good theory. Surely, this effect appears wherever you've got conflicting choices about what is best, but there are always reasonable arguments on why you should do X over Y. And you know, there are always people who respect other's choices. I am a vim user and I 100% understa…

I am curious if any vim user has ever been able to see the benefits of other environments. I know I have never been able to see the benefits of vim. Part of me wants to give a try for 3-6 months just to prove to myself that it's all bullshit and that vim is just another editor.

In any case. For a long time I was a fan of my editor of choice, slickedit. It definitely has a few features I use for which I don't know the analogs in most other editors. Features like versions backups. Undo of multi-file search and replace.

Also once had someone show me IntelliJ for C++ and was fairly impressed with its refactoring features. Enough that I thought I should look more into it.

I have yet to see a feature for vim that makes it clear win over any other major editor. I have read articles that make me understand why others might like it but seriously. I think you're all deluding yourselves.

Just as an example, lately I mostly do JavaScript and a little typescript. I'm 100% sure that the VSCode experience there out of the box is superior to vim for the same purpose. VSCode is node aware, browser aware, npm aware, eslint aware, typescript aware out of the box. I have no idea how much configuration I'd have to do in vim to get it to match and I find all of that invaluable. I'm not saying vim can't do it but I am saying if I tried to start using vim today on the projects I'm working on the experience would be seriously inferior. I don't know what language I'd have to be using to change that.