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I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

robdobson.com

271–280 of 317 posts

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a wifi access point in the house to supplement the lan, and so I don't have to use the data plan for my phone. The durned thing needs to be power cycled now and then. No way I'm putting the lights on wifi. The wired lan is 10x more reliable, but even it needs the router rebooted. (I've had lots of routers. All needed rebooting.) Never had to reboot the lights or the power sockets.

Do you think there's something inherent about forwarding packets or beaming WiFi that make devices unreliable or have you considered the possibility that purchasing a more expensive device might resolve these issues for you? MikroTik routers a good for the price, WiFi is decent. Ubiquity APs are good for their price, WiFi is about as good as it gets. HP ProCurve switches has been to space. You could use any device th…

I've bought multiple access points, they all required rebooting. My HD TV requires rebooting once every couple weeks or so. Also my Roku box. Also the cable modem. My Grace Digital media server. Every damned thing I own that has a computer in it needs rebooting now and then.

Including my Windows and Linux boxen. Or they just slowly grind down, likely from not doing a good job cleaning up unused resources.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#272

I installed an automatic sprinkler system with several "regions". I struggled with that thing for years. Programming it required reading a hefty manual. The user interface was near the worst I'd ever seen (the worst is on my automated cat feeder). I was constantly repairing the lines, the heads, the valves, the control box. I'd winterize it, de-winterize it. The coyotes would chew on it. Finally I simply turned it of…

This is something that silicon valley gets right. Hardware isn't easy for inexperienced companies and there are a lot of companies out there that make excellent reliable hardware. It's all pointless though if that hardware is hard to use. There's sometimes bad engineering from Silicon Valley hardware startups, but at least the design is usually user oriented and has been iterated on.

The cat feeder invented all their own cute icons, but what those icons are for cannot be divined without the manual. Lose the manual, and you might as well throw the machine away.

It's a freakin' catfeeder, jeez. It should just work.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#273

The ONLY wireless lighting system I will ever use is Lutron Caseta light switches. They are magic and don’t require a neutral cable, unlike just about every other smart dimmer, which means they can be swapped in place of literally any light switch in any home. If the Lutron hub is unplugged, the switches continue to operate as normal light switches. They also operate as normal light switches at all other times. So no…

What I'd really like to find is some variety of smart switch with a mode change between 'control the wall circuit' and 'leave the wall circuit always on and send commands over the network', so that the same switch hardware can be used everywhere but you can change the mode for specific circuits that have smart bulbs. I have no idea how one would design this in an intuitive way, though.

Inovelli (Z-Wave) supports this - https://inovelli.com/

They have a competitor whose name I can't remember that does the same thing.

If you never program the switch, it behaves just like a regular switch. If you program the switch, you can specify if it will trigger the relay, or just send z-wave commands. There's even a physical override switch you can pull out to cut power in case you have it programmed in "soft" mode.

The "red" product line doesn't require a neutral, either.

Works great for smart bulbs as long as you can set the hub up to do the control.

If you have z-wave bulbs (harder to find than zigbee, due to licensing), you can set up the z-wave pairing so that the switch controls the bulbs directly, so theoretically no hub required.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around 2010 I designed the "computer room" for a 3 story apartment building that had computers for the residents to use. It was all very basic. The only complexity was that the ethernet run was across the whole building and 3 stories from the 3rd story computer room to the first story utility room. The day came when it was time to test it out. All the Ethernet lights came on, but throughput was on the order of less t…

Electricians are bad at low voltage wiring. There’s a different contractor license for low voltage work in many states. Electricians also almost always use the wrong colors when wiring speakers with something like a 16/4. I have ran into this a lot.

Spot on with the colors. Why don't they pay more attention to that?

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#275

Wow, this guy is either willfully ignorant of ZWave technical realities, or just doesn't have as much knowledge in the realm as he purports to have. Basically every gripe listed has to do with using old original ZWave devices. If you started a 150-node mesh today with strictly ZWave+ devices, an Aotec ZWave hub, and perhaps Home Assistant to control and automate it all, you'd have a much more consistently positive ex…

OOI where are you finding ZWave dimmers for less than $50?

Here in the UK, £50 per device is about the going rate. Finding something for about £40 is pretty good going. But even then just doesn’t compete with a £10 Shelly.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#276

The ONLY wireless lighting system I will ever use is Lutron Caseta light switches. They are magic and don’t require a neutral cable, unlike just about every other smart dimmer, which means they can be swapped in place of literally any light switch in any home. If the Lutron hub is unplugged, the switches continue to operate as normal light switches. They also operate as normal light switches at all other times. So no…

Think it’s worth mentioning that the author is in the UK.

Unfortunately Lutron gear just isn’t compatible with our switches. Everything 240V rather than 110V, and to make things even more complicated our standard switch dimensions (and thus standard wall box dimensions) are different to both the US and EU. Meaning nothing physically fits either, unless you replaced every wall box with an imported wall box.

Lutrons stuff looks amazing, it just sucks that it’s completely not compatible with UK homes, or even UK culture. I think a lot of Brits would find Lutron’s designs very jarring.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EoP has huge RFI issues, it basically turns your house wiring into a giant antenna broadcasting broadband noise.

Alas, if it makes my heating work the way it is supposed to then it's a price I'm willing to pay.

Spectrum is a shared resource, it's a cost we all pay.

Part 15 doesn't give you a free pass to blast RFI everywhere. If you're over the legal limit and found to be broadcasting you will be asked to stop using it.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and the runs where What happens if you somewhat exceed the 100m limit? The only sources I can find boil down to just don't do that but I can't find a chart showing what happens to performance/frame loss. Would it help to have a heavily shielded cable?

The 100m eithernet distance restriction used to be to ensure that if two machines tried to start talking on the same line, they would hear the noise from the other before they finished sending their packet, and could therefore know there was a transmission error. That is, at least, what was described to me in Computer Networks I back in 2006. I'm sure things have changed as we've moved to always using full-duplex wir…

It is really about the modulation scheme limits (distance v noise). Most ethernet networks have been full-duplex on an individual link level since the early 2000s.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NM wiring is extremely common in every state (except for Illinois) and NM is allowed without restrictions in multi-family stick-built housing up to four stories. You must live in Chicago or some other restrictive AHJ. There are still existing functional knob and tube wiring systems that are 100 years old

I still have some knob and tube wiring in my home (which is 96 years old). I've ripped out most of it over the years, but it is amazing how reliable it actually is.

Were you able to do that without digging into the walls? My house had a bathroom and the kitchen upgraded by the previous owner and we did the basement but most of the house remains on knob-and-tube.

I've gradually added GFCI outlets to each circuit. They're not grounded, unfortunately, but they do trip if something were to go wrong. And it allows us to plug in 3-prong plugs without using those horrible 2-to-3 adapters.

We had to change home insurance companies because Amica blacklisted us the instant they heard there was knob-and-tube wiring. A few other companies have the same approach. But it's not like homes are spontaneously combusting everywhere because of it.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#280
I have 30+ zwave devices on my homeassistant and some years experience going back to the X10 and insteon days and here's my comments on the article and other folks comments:

1) TLDR does not like the effort required for hard wiring. Solution I used? Never hard wire end devices. Makes it easy to take it all with me if I move. Pairing is insanely simple and done in infinite comfort in my office chair not on top of a ladder or whatever nonsense. Then once it all works I plug it in the official place. I hated replacing my hardwired insteon switches. Obviously wall switches have to be built in, but why would I have to climb a rickety ladder with a laptop per the linked article to access a wall switch? And I've had ridiculous good results with RF switches and with automation based on presence and timers I don't "need" wall switches nearly as often. There's no point in rewiring a wall switch for my driveway and side door lights if the lights are now near 100% controlled by elevation of sun and position of garage door and some software timers. Honestly I'm not entirely sure where my physical garage light switch is...

2) Never had a problem with healing

3) Yes I too ran into scaling problems where I have a "large" number of zooz Zen15 inline switches and they work great but the out of the box homeassistant config had them spamming the current voltage and current ... current like every second. Which looks nice when you're demoing one device. Not cool if you have 20 of them spamming the unholy hell out of homeassistant. There are config options to fix that and suddenly my network works better including healing.

You uh, do know you can have multiple zwave systems? I mean zwave the protocol only supports 254-ish devices off a stick, but another stick is like $15? And to some extent with MQTT and some virtualization you can have "infinite" HA servers running? I was amused with the idea of running a separate HA instance for every ROOM in my house on docker. Its not hard to pass usb access thru docker and the sticks work fine. I would imagine if I ran long USB extension cords and multiple zwave sticks each with only like 10 devices that network thruput and healing times would be AWESOME. But I'm lazy to set this up and I only have like 30+ devices so...

4) See my virtualization idea in #3. If an aeotech zwave stick failed (note, never happened to me nor heard of it happening to anyone) then I'd cry some if I had the protocol limited 254 devices to re-pair, but with only 10 in a room or whatever, eh who cares something to do for a half hour while listening to a podcast or something.

5) Hate to repeat myself see virtualization idea in #3. Again, if my entire system died I'd be sorely inconvenienced, but if my living room virtualized dockerized server died I'd only be out my automatic fish tank lights, my automatic presence detected and temp controlled ceiling fan, and some area lighting effects based on roku and other TV device status.

6) Seriously dude I lived thru Insteon AC line caps blowing every year or two, you have no idea how good you have it with zwave. But see answer to #1 again. Have a zooz zen15 ready in backup and its like 5 minutes work to swap them out.

7) I have not had a dead node problem. Interference related? Only when the microwave oven is on? Honestly I donno. It sounds anecdotal along lines of "Don't use Verizon worldwide because my local tower sux"

8) Confused what short lifespan Chinese outdoor christmas lights have to do with automation. Like if your christmas lights burn out too much it doesn't matter if you don't control them, or timer them, or zwave them.

9) Yeah well CLIs are user friendly they're just a bit selective about who they're friends with. General public maybe not, HN type people will be fine.

10) What price safety, convenience, security? So the "light switch" for my basement stairs is the door, making it impossible to stumble down the steps in the dark, isn't that worth something? Building code requires a light over my entrance door which is practically never used, but now my icy steps in the winter are at least very well lit.

I think the biggest problem OP will have with his esoteric wifi light system is theres maybe 1000x as many casual zwave users and eyes on zwave hardware. Bug strikes down zwave then HA development goes in crisis repair mode with excellent support on the forums. The one install in his state of this guy's wifi thingie goes down, well... reinstall zwave or be very very patient?

People who hate the upgrade process on home assistant: Dockerized HA and tar or whatever snapshot strategy you want. Life's a lot easier than "misterhouse" back around 2000.

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