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I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

robdobson.com

111–120 of 317 posts

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#111
I don't want to come off as unduly harsh here but I could feel my blood pressure rising the more I read of this article. I got to about point 4 and had to stop.

Why, you might ask?

Because I am "fortunate" enough to live in a house where the previous owner bodged and kludged every single home improvement and DIY job he attempted. He did it in a different way to Mr Dobson (who at least employed a professional electrician) but, nonetheless, the point stands. In my place even the most basic jobs have been done in a way that is incorrect, sometimes unsafe, and usually adds significant time and expense in fixing or making modifications beyond what would reasonably be expected. I am gradually correcting all of this but it's slow and frustrating work.

This article contains numerous sections that would be absolute red flags, at least to me, for buying this house if and when Mr Dobson chooses to sell it. Here are a couple of examples:

> To this day I have a spreadsheet with around 500 lines (around 3 lines per circuit) which details all of the lighting circuits in the house, the circuit breaker they are connected to, the type of device that controls the circuit and its location. Unfortunately I wasn’t 100% successful in getting the control point of all the lighting circuits in one of these five locations and there are actually at least three units lost in the walls somewhere which respond to Z-Wave commands but don’t seem to control anything I can find!

> I have now gotten to the stage where I dread some modules failing. The one that controls a water-feature in the garden is in a sealed box, the one that controls an out-door heater is in a small loft area that can only be accessed by a rickety ladder, the one for the guest-room extractor fan is in a crawl space, etc. This can’t be the right way to do things can it?

That last sentence nearly floored me: no, it clearly isn't, so why have you done things this way?

This is an absolute horror show and I have little confidence that anyone who approaches home improvement with Mr Dobson's mindset is going to do a better job of whatever the replacement ends up being. [EDIT: I have now read the conclusion which, at least in my view, bears out this statement pretty well.]

You can obviously do whatever you want with your own home but if you're going to go nuts on the home automation front, especially if you tend towards early adoption and want to attempt something very ambitious, you might want to consider what effect that could have on your ability to sell your home again in future. Homebuyers are going to become a lot more savvy, and a lot more sceptical, about these kinds of systems and modifications as time goes on.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#113
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the electrician didn't understand words like "crosstalk" Can you explain what the problem is? I also run cat5 (or maybe even cat6, don't remember) to every room, most even multiple times, just put it in walls/cailings/whatever worked and all 40 or so sockets work just fine. I turn the switch on, the lights go on, I turn it off, the lights go off. I run a star configuration for switches and light points, where all swi…

Crosstalk is when two wires are close together, one induces a voltage in the other (it's how transformers work). The trouble with house wiring is if you run a phone line parallel and close to an A/C line, it will induce a 60 cycle hum in the phone line, which will drive you utterly mad. The electrician was installing the cat3 phone wires in the same holes as the A/C wires. It was guaranteed to induce a hum. The corre…

Sorry should have been more clear; I'm an eletronics engineer so I know what crosstalk is, it's just that I didn't understand how this would be an actual problem with CAT5. Phone line, that's something else though.

If an electrician had done it, it likely would have been 10 or 20x more.

Hmm, that is like twice the amount one would typcially pay here. Still, don't froget the working hours you put in there :) plus the fact that usually technicians get their materials for cheaper than you do (also because in my case it's only 6% VAT instead of 21%). I did many such calculations when renovating and for some things it was actually cheaper to get a technician.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#114
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the electrician didn't understand words like "crosstalk" Can you explain what the problem is? I also run cat5 (or maybe even cat6, don't remember) to every room, most even multiple times, just put it in walls/cailings/whatever worked and all 40 or so sockets work just fine. I turn the switch on, the lights go on, I turn it off, the lights go off. I run a star configuration for switches and light points, where all swi…

40 sockets is pretty impressive. Running cat-something (I got CAT6) everywhere makes absolute sense though! Especially now that everyone and their dog is working from home, and I live in a typical nineteen-thirties Dutch street with terrace housing, not having to rely on wifi too much is pretty awesome. I think by now I've got rid of all the R59 cable sockets and POTS stuff too except for one POTS socket in the cabin…

When I started with that idea a lot of people considered it crazy. But for some jobs I've had the trouble of not having a network in some places was so annoying that I thought: not in my place. For me it totally paid off, it's just convenient to have a proper connection everywhere. Also because we were living in the house during renovations so moved desk multiple times. Granted there are sockets which I haven't actually used yet, but there's equal amounts for which at one point I thought 'damn, so convenient that this socket is here' :). E.g. FM reception here sucks for some stations, now I just carry a little RaspberryPi+speakers mounted on a piece of wood around as 'radio' and can just plug it in in any room. Also if I see the mess some people go through in a brand new house, dealing with wifi repeaters on all floors and sometimes long cables to feed them just to get a signal which is still worse than a fixed line, I think this way is more convenient.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note, this is what I use things but I also have dumb switches to control if things fail. I also dont put control in hard to reach places. I just use outdoor sensors + smart bulbs. Use case 1: Open all lights in yard at night when exterior gate is open or motion detected. Shut off after set amount of time of no activity. Use case 2: light in shed/basement/garage on when door is open. Use case 3: control lights via tel…

I have been fortunate to have never been flooded but I'm curious if you got the alarm would the situation turn out much better than if you didn't?

There are motorized whole house water valve shut offs that can be connected to leak sensors. Have a water heater rust out, leak, fill the pan, trip the sensor, shutoff the house water, continue to slowly leak its 30-60 gallons out, but at least it’s not continuous, pressurized leaking until you notice.

Even without an automated valve, you could shut off a manual valve yourself if alerted to a slow leak.

Leak sensors can also help if you have a failed sump pump. My sump pits have a main pump, about 6” higher a second battery-backed pump with a (local) alarm. It’s a good idea, but the battery pump often fails to run when needed because of sitting so long, so the alarm is a wise addition. (If it ever goes off while you’re not testing the system, something needs attention.)

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple engineering rule applies here... “if you can run a wire, run a wire”. Notice over the whole article he talks about the how, but not really the why?

I have a wifi access point in the house to supplement the lan, and so I don't have to use the data plan for my phone. The durned thing needs to be power cycled now and then. No way I'm putting the lights on wifi. The wired lan is 10x more reliable, but even it needs the router rebooted. (I've had lots of routers. All needed rebooting.) Never had to reboot the lights or the power sockets.

Do you think there's something inherent about forwarding packets or beaming WiFi that make devices unreliable or have you considered the possibility that purchasing a more expensive device might resolve these issues for you?

MikroTik routers a good for the price, WiFi is decent. Ubiquity APs are good for their price, WiFi is about as good as it gets. HP ProCurve switches has been to space.

You could use any device that runs Linux to DYI these things. Though you need one 2ghz and one 5ghz NIC in the device acting AP.

Since i started working IT 5 years ago and got some gear from work I've never had to reboot my device because it stopped functioning though I have scheduled automatic software updates checking (and installing if available) every day at 5am which implies automatic reboots every once in awhile.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#117
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, not having to get up and go to the door. I find that extremely convenient when lying in bed, about to sleep. I usually read for a few hours with dark red light, when I’m ready to sleep I can just turn the lights off.

Why would you leave the room light on for reading in bed?

Because I don’t want to read in full darkness. I sometimes read for several hours before I sleep, the lack of light would make me fall asleep far too early (I already wake up at 4 in the morning when I sleep normally).

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#118

I wouldn't buy a house with such a system in it, and I doubt anybody else will, either. Who wants to become an expert on these systems just to turn the lights on? Not a chance. I considered these systems when my house was built, and am very glad I didn't get them. I turn the switch on, the lights go on, I turn it off, the lights go off. I replace a bulb now and then. That's it! I'm very happy with it. But what I did…

The easy solution is to have the intelligence in the lightbulbs the way Philips, Osram and IKEA did on their Zigbee based systems.

I have all lights (100+) in the house on Zigbee but without changing any wiring. Only non standard is that I replaced all the wall switches with a variant that's electrically "always on" and sends a Zigbee command when pressed (and can be pulled out to access a traditional physical switch as a backup in case of full system failure). They fit the original Siemens outer wall plates that my house was built with so everything looks standard. Returning evening to non-smart in case I want to sell the place is an afternoon of work replacing the switches behind the plastic face plate with their old versions. Those are all in a box in the attic :-)

The benefits of smart lights for comfort are pretty big, auto-on lights by motion detection is great for bathrooms, storage rooms etc. Having the color temperature match outside and time of day is also much better than traditional dimmers. Voice control is useful in some situations (mostly when cooking or carrying kids or groceries). And being able to walk out the front door saying "Alexa, turn off all lights" is a great way to save energy and make things easy.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#119
post #94

Does anyone here have any experience with KNX? It seems like the best wired system (without being locked into a single manufacturer), but from what I understand it's expensive and not aimed at DIYers. For context I'm in the process of building a house and like OP am considering Shelly modules, but it seems a bit silly to go wireless when I am doing everything from scratch.

I don't have hands on experience, but I read about it a lot.

Yes, it is not meant for DIY, but in Germany there is a big DIY community, unfortunately that also means a lot of hands-on experience is shared in German forums and Youtube channels.

The main issue is the ETS software you need to configure KNX devices. Full license is around 2k€, but if you have up to 15 KNX devices I believe there is a cheaper license.

Next apartment/house i buy will probably be wired with KNX for roller shutters, heating/air conditioning and for lighting either KNX or KNX-Dali Gateway.

There is an interesting channel on Youtube if you are interested: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnGAZMA4wzOYx_P7aXTRc7A

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, not having to get up and go to the door. I find that extremely convenient when lying in bed, about to sleep. I usually read for a few hours with dark red light, when I’m ready to sleep I can just turn the lights off.

You don't really need a "smart" light for it, a traditional radio-controlled "dumb" light switch is good enough for this purpose. Just press a button, and the remote control sends a RF signal at 433 MHz to switch it on or off, there's no IoT complexity like firmware updates, Linux kernel, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, an Internet connection or other nonsense. It can either be a light switch installed on the wall, or an integrate…

The question was for wireless lights. A radio-controlled dumb-switch used this way is still wireless lightning.

And what privacy concerns are there with lights that have no internet connection whatsoever?

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