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The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

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Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#61

Post by mrtksn »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #59
mrtksn wrote: post #11

In Bulgaria, Gypsies are viewed as a huge problem and people are often openly racist against them, even on national TV. The stereotype is that the gypsies will steal whatever they can, trash and start fights and many other things. My grandma would hide her stuff if sees a gypsy, on the other hand there's a subset that she would adore. The subset, according to her, are the "tradesmen" gypsies and she would often buy s…

There is a lot of "racism" talk on this thread, but criminal Roma gangs are an undeniable fact in Europe as they are regularly dismantled by the police. One cannot defend the exploitation of the poor, young kids, the disabled, the old, sent to western Europe and forced into begging, stealing or mugging locals and excuse that with "cultural relativism". These ones live in shanty towns, do not send their young children…

If it was about race, how do you explain the roma situation in Turkey? It's the same people but drastically different engagement in the public life.

The gangs, the trash, the dirt, the kids out of school - all real things as photographed and descrbed by the author of the article.

The more likely explanation is that the Bulgarians screwed up with the policy and the Turks got something right.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#62

Post by bigbubba »

ithkuil wrote: post #49
marton78 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that many Europeans are racist towards Roma and the other gypsy peoples. Much of what they say will be pure nonsense (e.g., they are stupid, not fit for work, etc), but other common statements you might hear also have some truth to them. For example, "they all steal" is of course a gross simplification, as many Roma are well integrated and live a regular life. However, if you are surrounded by a group of peop…

> Roma and the other gypsy peoples I thought gypsy was the exonym for the Roma(ni) people. Are there other "gypsy" peoples?

Irish Travellers are sometimes called gypsies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#63

Post by de_Selby »

ithkuil wrote: post #49
marton78 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that many Europeans are racist towards Roma and the other gypsy peoples. Much of what they say will be pure nonsense (e.g., they are stupid, not fit for work, etc), but other common statements you might hear also have some truth to them. For example, "they all steal" is of course a gross simplification, as many Roma are well integrated and live a regular life. However, if you are surrounded by a group of peop…

> Roma and the other gypsy peoples I thought gypsy was the exonym for the Roma(ni) people. Are there other "gypsy" peoples?

Travellers could also be considered gypsies. They are mainly in Ireland and England and are regarded similarly.

Part of the problem is that a nomadic lifestyle just doesn't gel with modern society so they don't integrate at all. For the same reason it's hard for these people to find work and a subset do often turn to crime.

Culturally they also have very conservative and often misogynistic views which acts as another barrier to integration.

In ways it is similar to the issues with Islamic migrants integrating into European society. It's too simplistic to just label it as racism and be done with it (not to say there isn't racism). There are real issues.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#64

Post by loxs »

wwosik wrote: post #12
carlsborg wrote: post #4

Nice to see them being portrayed as friendly and in a somewhat positive light. Unfortunately, this is one of the most unfairly treated ethnic groups in Europe - the prejudice runs high even amongst people with generally progressive views - and I have to object to this headline's labelling of the area. I hope that in the coming years that would be treated as a racial slur.

I do not think they would be friendly to any local Bulgarian that wandered into the neighbourhood. Also "many children don’t attend school." is rather a problem, isn't it. And though I do not know much about Bulgaria, I doubt it's because of the money. I'd assume Bulgaria has free schools and probably social support for financially struggling kids. There are so many different nations in Europe, some with their nation…

You are right. Their situation is mostly of their own doing. And of course it's exacerbated by the discrimination, but they don't have to live in mountains of trash. Also they don't let the police in their communities, neither the taxmen. It's a de-facto state within the state. The state has "left" them the way they prefer. And I am a firm believer that this is the right stance. The only other possible approach would be something like a police state, forced labor and education etc. Free healthcare and social benefits they get even now. They literally do no work and get no jobs because they have enough money to continue their happy existence. I am not being sarcastic here by saying "happy" as it's very much visible in the article. This is the ultimate failure of the well-fare state and it's only going to get worse if the well-fare continues. It's very funny how progressives chant slogans from far away, but no one dares go propose the same ideas in-person (to the Roma).

I am also a member of a minority in Bulgaria (Turkish), but our people are nothing like the Roma - we don't live in ghettos. And although there is a lot of "historically based" hatred towards us here, I can say from experience that the (ethnic) Bulgarians are not that racist (or at least not unreasonably so). Westerners are too soft and entitled to their progressive beliefs which are going to screw them big time.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#65

Post by true_religion »

mpol wrote: post #51
knuthsat wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe also that Roma people in the US are successfully integrated and do not live in ghettos or outskirts. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0494831/ Documentary above also really nicely shows the microculture of these people

The Roma are well integrated in the US? I saw a TV show where that was clearly not the case, there was a community where everybody was supposed to get married inside their own community. I don't think that is integration. Ofcourse I don't know how big this group was, relative to all Roma people in the US. This was some reality marriage show, I think on TLC or something. (yes, my then-girlfriend watched this :) ).

Well they are just as well integrated as the Jewish population or the Amish. Small communities where everyone married back into the faith is the only way to keep a small ethnic group consistent.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#66

Post by colinb »

jmcdl wrote: post #25

I ask myself quite genuinely if under the same circumstances I would live like that. It's really very hard to imagine that I or anyone I know would just accept living in trash like that. We would surely all agree to get some shovels and at least clean up the sidewalk in front of our house...right? What stops them from doing that? It seems like a choice.

I’ll confused. What has San Francisco got to do with this?

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#67

Post by throw_m239339 »

mrtksn wrote: post #61
throw_m239339 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of "racism" talk on this thread, but criminal Roma gangs are an undeniable fact in Europe as they are regularly dismantled by the police. One cannot defend the exploitation of the poor, young kids, the disabled, the old, sent to western Europe and forced into begging, stealing or mugging locals and excuse that with "cultural relativism". These ones live in shanty towns, do not send their young children…

If it was about race, how do you explain the roma situation in Turkey? It's the same people but drastically different engagement in the public life. The gangs, the trash, the dirt, the kids out of school - all real things as photographed and descrbed by the author of the article. The more likely explanation is that the Bulgarians screwed up with the policy and the Turks got something right.

> The more likely explanation is that the Bulgarians screwed up with the policy and the Turks got something right.

You're insinuating that Bulgaria enacted policies that forced Roma into a life of crime. You're also insinuating that all Europe enacted policies that forced Roma in Europe into crime since they behave likewise everywhere in Europe this specific group of gypsies goes which is a preposterous assertion.

There are other groups of gypsies, in France for instance which live there and do not have that criminal culture. So no, the problem isn't Bulgaria, or Romania, or France. The problem is criminal gangs that exploit their illiterate brothers and sisters, you can't put the onus on European states, not today.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#68

Post by mrtksn »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #67
mrtksn wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was about race, how do you explain the roma situation in Turkey? It's the same people but drastically different engagement in the public life. The gangs, the trash, the dirt, the kids out of school - all real things as photographed and descrbed by the author of the article. The more likely explanation is that the Bulgarians screwed up with the policy and the Turks got something right.

> The more likely explanation is that the Bulgarians screwed up with the policy and the Turks got something right. You're insinuating that Bulgaria enacted policies that forced Roma into a life of crime. You're also insinuating that all Europe enacted policies that forced Roma in Europe into crime since they behave likewise everywhere in Europe this specific group of gypsies goes which is a preposterous assertion. Th…

Well, if it’s not about gypsies and policies but about criminal gangs then that’s the police not doing their job.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#69

Post by loxs »

jmcdl wrote: post #25

I ask myself quite genuinely if under the same circumstances I would live like that. It's really very hard to imagine that I or anyone I know would just accept living in trash like that. We would surely all agree to get some shovels and at least clean up the sidewalk in front of our house...right? What stops them from doing that? It seems like a choice.

Nothing stops them. It's their own choice. And the government literally pays them to not have to work and be able to live like this.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#70

Post by ithkuil »

de_Selby wrote: post #63
ithkuil wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Roma and the other gypsy peoples I thought gypsy was the exonym for the Roma(ni) people. Are there other "gypsy" peoples?

Travellers could also be considered gypsies. They are mainly in Ireland and England and are regarded similarly. Part of the problem is that a nomadic lifestyle just doesn't gel with modern society so they don't integrate at all. For the same reason it's hard for these people to find work and a subset do often turn to crime. Culturally they also have very conservative and often misogynistic views which acts as another…

> Travellers could also be considered gypsies

Yes I heard people use that label for all nomadic minorities. I wonder if it's improper use of the word.

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