Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake • Hacker News Board

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#71

Post by pstuart » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 7:32 PM UTC

chub500 wrote: post #47

extra88 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Federalist Society finds, indoctrinates, and advances conservative lawyers and judges. That's not inherently anti-democratic though their level of success and influence on judges selection processes may be considered so. The problem is they also tend to be highly partisan (pro-Republican) which undermines the separation of powers. Often their picks ignore their "originalist" approach when it would be counter to t…

I believe for the last 30 years or so (after the late Antonin Scalia) 'conservative' judge is almost synonymous with originalist. I think you may be falling victim to correlation is not causation? IE there are no liberal originalists by definition (above). If I'm wrong, could you give me an example of a liberal originalist? I would be very happy to be wrong about this. The correlation here is that conservative presid…

Originalism seems to go hand-in-hand with religious fundamentalism, i.e, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it".

Edit: for the downvoters, please let me know how Scalia's religious beliefs were completely compartmentalized and had no influence on him outside of a church: https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/justice-antonin-sc...

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#72

Post by iso1210 » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 7:34 PM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #46

wombatmobile wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If rich people payed tax at the same rate as ordinary people, we'd be living in the same system without harmful extremes of inequality.

Nope. Marginal propensity to spend kills that out of the gate. Poor people save a much smaller proportion of their income than rich people, on average. Since rich people are rich (meaning that percentage is out of a bigger pie than the poor person's), and their savings rates are higher than poor people, you just multiply that out and see that rich people will get richer much faster than poor people. This doesn't take…

What really riles me about taxation is that generally people who work longer/harder/smarter to increase their net worth get taxed far more than those who increase it because they have a spare 50k they put into the stock market.

For a just society we should tax working far less than taxing capital and dividend gains, not the opposite.

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#73

Post by omnicom » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 7:34 PM UTC

chub500 wrote: post #60

extra88 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you seriously think Scalia cared about protecting people's rights to bear arms beyond the text of the 2nd amendment? Whatever rights to bear arms there are, they come from the 2nd Amendment. It is absurd to stretch an Amendment about "well regulated Militia" to mean D.C. can't require people to store a handgun with a trigger lock because it would impinge on their ability to use it for personal protection. Yet th…

Let me push back one more time. If what you're saying is true, and no judge no matter how much integrity they have can be truly originalist - what do we do? Is our judicial system dead? Should we even try to pick originalists or give up on a third branch and let it be a super legislature? What comes of rule of law? Doesn't this seem like a problem?

You should accept that the supreme court is a nakedly political body just like the other two branches. The idea of some impartial body of judges who can strike down laws or in the case of qualified immunity just make them up is absurd. Do you think that the fact that judges often split 5-4 along ideological lines is just a coincidence, or that conservatives put such a high importance on the court during the last election so they can elect an "originalist"? The garbage passed by Roberts about "balls and strikes" is insulting, and the fact that people blindly accept it is beyond me.

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#74

Post by sjy » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 7:34 PM UTC

chub500 wrote: post #60

extra88 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you seriously think Scalia cared about protecting people's rights to bear arms beyond the text of the 2nd amendment? Whatever rights to bear arms there are, they come from the 2nd Amendment. It is absurd to stretch an Amendment about "well regulated Militia" to mean D.C. can't require people to store a handgun with a trigger lock because it would impinge on their ability to use it for personal protection. Yet th…

Let me push back one more time. If what you're saying is true, and no judge no matter how much integrity they have can be truly originalist - what do we do? Is our judicial system dead? Should we even try to pick originalists or give up on a third branch and let it be a super legislature? What comes of rule of law? Doesn't this seem like a problem?

You could look to the legal system in the United Kingdom, Canada or Australia, which has the same basic structure, without the bizarre political pageantry surrounding the appointment of apex court judges. In these countries judges are not considered “liberal” or “conservative,” at least not by the general public. Theories of judicial interpretation are treated as an obscure philosophical concept taught at law school, not a mainstream political issue that affects elections.

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#75

Post by bitwize » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 7:35 PM UTC

hackeraccount wrote: post #53

chub500 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give a brief synopsis about how the federalist society is a conspiracy against democracy? I thought it was about originalism which seems to me to be pro-democracy by maintaining proper separation of powers etc.

conspiracy against democracy = people pursuing political ends I don't like Grassroots democratic action = people pursuing political ends I do like

"$TYCOON_I_DISAGREE_WITH is a shadowy oligarch undermining democracy with dark money" = facts

"$TYCOON_I_AGREE_WITH is a shadowy oligarch undermining democracy with dark money" = unfounded conspiracy theory

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#76

Post by jonstewart » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 7:37 PM UTC

extra88 wrote: post #41

chub500 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give a brief synopsis about how the federalist society is a conspiracy against democracy? I thought it was about originalism which seems to me to be pro-democracy by maintaining proper separation of powers etc.

The Federalist Society finds, indoctrinates, and advances conservative lawyers and judges. That's not inherently anti-democratic though their level of success and influence on judges selection processes may be considered so. The problem is they also tend to be highly partisan (pro-Republican) which undermines the separation of powers. Often their picks ignore their "originalist" approach when it would be counter to t…

Indeed. To illustrate Samuel Alito just gave a keynote address to the Federalist Society a few days ago. The NY Times and NPR have recaps:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/13/us/samuel-alito-religious...

https://www.npr.org/2020/11/13/934666499/justice-alito-pande...

You can watch the whole thing for yourself here:

https://youtu.be/tYLZL4GZVbA

The speech is an attack on science, expertise, and common sense. It’s a MAGA hat with a thin veneer of respectability.

It’s not clear to me to what extent such judges believe in this ideology, or whether they’re simply craven and exercising a will to power, but the Federalist Society has spent the past several decades working to place lawyers with fringe jurisprudence into the judiciary, and the Koch brothers wrote the checks.

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#77

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 7:42 PM UTC

chub500 wrote: post #47

extra88 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Federalist Society finds, indoctrinates, and advances conservative lawyers and judges. That's not inherently anti-democratic though their level of success and influence on judges selection processes may be considered so. The problem is they also tend to be highly partisan (pro-Republican) which undermines the separation of powers. Often their picks ignore their "originalist" approach when it would be counter to t…

I believe for the last 30 years or so (after the late Antonin Scalia) 'conservative' judge is almost synonymous with originalist. I think you may be falling victim to correlation is not causation? IE there are no liberal originalists by definition (above). If I'm wrong, could you give me an example of a liberal originalist? I would be very happy to be wrong about this. The correlation here is that conservative presid…

[deleted]

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#78

Post by andrewmg » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 7:44 PM UTC

louwrentius wrote: post #19

“Dark Money” by Jane Mayer was extremely enlightening. The influence of the Koch family on politics and public opinion has been devastating. The Federalist Society is a conspiracy against democracy.

(Longtime HN lurker and FedSoc member/leader, although speaking for just myself here.)

The Federalist Society's entire annual convention was just broadcast online this past week,[0] and it's pretty typical of the Society's activities: hosting panels, debates, and speeches on the law featuring a wide breadth of views. If the Federalist Society is some kind of "conspiracy"—one that you can join today, for fifty bucks!—then so is pretty much every other civic organization in existence.

[0] https://fedsoc.org/conferences/2020-national-lawyers-convent...

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#79

Post by Zigurd » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 7:44 PM UTC

chub500 wrote: post #60

extra88 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you seriously think Scalia cared about protecting people's rights to bear arms beyond the text of the 2nd amendment? Whatever rights to bear arms there are, they come from the 2nd Amendment. It is absurd to stretch an Amendment about "well regulated Militia" to mean D.C. can't require people to store a handgun with a trigger lock because it would impinge on their ability to use it for personal protection. Yet th…

Let me push back one more time. If what you're saying is true, and no judge no matter how much integrity they have can be truly originalist - what do we do? Is our judicial system dead? Should we even try to pick originalists or give up on a third branch and let it be a super legislature? What comes of rule of law? Doesn't this seem like a problem?

"Originalism" is not possible in practice because it would lead to absurd outcomes. It is reasonable to suspect that "originalism" is a construct in bad faith, to cover a preference for old bigotries and a less than coherent grab bag of right wing positions.

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#80

Post by brewdad » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 7:45 PM UTC

splintercell wrote: post #66

extra88 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conservative judges have no problem with legislation from the bench when they're the ones doing it. Again, they pretend to use an impartial "originalist" principle when decision-making but cherry-pick the "original" texts they use or ignore them when they would lead to ruling in a way conservatives don't like. How is it "originalist" to take the 2nd Amendment, which refers to "well regulated Militia," and using it to…

well-regulated does not mean government regulations. It means well-functioning. Like a well regulated clock.

We have a standing army now. The 2nd Amendment is no longer relevant.