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Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

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Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#51

Post by extra88 »

chub500 wrote: post #47
extra88 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Federalist Society finds, indoctrinates, and advances conservative lawyers and judges. That's not inherently anti-democratic though their level of success and influence on judges selection processes may be considered so. The problem is they also tend to be highly partisan (pro-Republican) which undermines the separation of powers. Often their picks ignore their "originalist" approach when it would be counter to t…

I believe for the last 30 years or so (after the late Antonin Scalia) 'conservative' judge is almost synonymous with originalist. I think you may be falling victim to correlation is not causation? IE there are no liberal originalists by definition (above). If I'm wrong, could you give me an example of a liberal originalist? I would be very happy to be wrong about this. The correlation here is that conservative presid…

Conservative judges have no problem with legislation from the bench when they're the ones doing it. Again, they pretend to use an impartial "originalist" principle when decision-making but cherry-pick the "original" texts they use or ignore them when they would lead to ruling in a way conservatives don't like.

How is it "originalist" to take the 2nd Amendment, which refers to "well regulated Militia," and using it to say there's a Constitutional right to owning a handgun for personal protection (without safety requirements like a trigger lock or safe)? It's not, yet that's what conservatives decided, specifically Scalia in his majority opinion in District of Columbia v. Heller.

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#53

Post by hackeraccount »

chub500 wrote: post #37
louwrentius wrote: post #19

“Dark Money” by Jane Mayer was extremely enlightening. The influence of the Koch family on politics and public opinion has been devastating. The Federalist Society is a conspiracy against democracy.

Can you give a brief synopsis about how the federalist society is a conspiracy against democracy? I thought it was about originalism which seems to me to be pro-democracy by maintaining proper separation of powers etc.

conspiracy against democracy = people pursuing political ends I don't like

Grassroots democratic action = people pursuing political ends I do like

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#54

Post by hackeraccount »

sacomo wrote: post #5

Shouldn't have been allowed to have undemocratic control over that amount of political power (wealth) to begin with.

How do you decide how much wealth someone can have? If you say let's do it democratically who's involved in that democratic decision? The people who's wealth is going to be ... eh, uncontrolled? And is it undemocratic if they decide they don't want that? Isn't it possible that we're actually doing what you want - stopping people from having undemocratic control over wealth but we just put the line over how much in a different place then you seemingly want to?

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#55

Post by chub500 »

extra88 wrote: post #51
chub500 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe for the last 30 years or so (after the late Antonin Scalia) 'conservative' judge is almost synonymous with originalist. I think you may be falling victim to correlation is not causation? IE there are no liberal originalists by definition (above). If I'm wrong, could you give me an example of a liberal originalist? I would be very happy to be wrong about this. The correlation here is that conservative presid…

Conservative judges have no problem with legislation from the bench when they're the ones doing it. Again, they pretend to use an impartial "originalist" principle when decision-making but cherry-pick the "original" texts they use or ignore them when they would lead to ruling in a way conservatives don't like. How is it "originalist" to take the 2nd Amendment, which refers to "well regulated Militia," and using it to…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_j6lRdktscE

Do you seriously think Scalia cared about protecting people's rights to bear arms beyond the text of the 2nd amendment? Again, what constitutes a true liberal originalist? These justices are not pursuing power but trying to interpret law - and they get accused of undermining democracy...

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#56

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

the-dude wrote: post #34
flavor8 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's 85, his brother died recently, and he's very likely concerned about "legacy". According to Greenpeace, these assholes have poured $145,555,197 into groups that worked counter to climate policy changes being enacted (from 1997 to 2018). _Partisanship_ should be the least of his worries - he'll be remembered as a key figure who spurred inaction at the exact time that we should have been taking drastic action.

And Greenpeace, with a 'campaign' director who used to fly up & down from Luxemburg to Amsterdam for his commute? [0] Dutch, no international sources available AFAIK : [0] https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/artikel/1806716/greenpeace-v...

[flagged]

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#57

Post by BurningFrog »

EliRivers wrote: post #42
BurningFrog wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so that massive wealth has a tendency to be distributed throughout the population rather than concentrating in few hands If you look at the data, i think you'll find that billionaires own a very small proportion of all wealth

Very rough numbers, a bit out of date: Allegedly about 2100 billionaires - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World%27s_Billionaires A couple of years ago all the millionaires put together controlled about 45% of global wealth - https://www.visualcapitalist.com/global-wealth-concentration... Since billionaires are a subset of those, then they cannot possibly control any more than 45%, so certainly less than half. Can'…

Thanks for doing the work!

Another angle is that Jeff Bezos, richest man in the world, has $184B. That's $550 per American, or $24 per human.

Undeniably a lot of money, but also far from a sum that would change the world if it got redistributed.

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#58

Post by extra88 »

chub500 wrote: post #55
extra88 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conservative judges have no problem with legislation from the bench when they're the ones doing it. Again, they pretend to use an impartial "originalist" principle when decision-making but cherry-pick the "original" texts they use or ignore them when they would lead to ruling in a way conservatives don't like. How is it "originalist" to take the 2nd Amendment, which refers to "well regulated Militia," and using it to…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_j6lRdktscE Do you seriously think Scalia cared about protecting people's rights to bear arms beyond the text of the 2nd amendment? Again, what constitutes a true liberal originalist? These justices are not pursuing power but trying to interpret law - and they get accused of undermining democracy...

> Do you seriously think Scalia cared about protecting people's rights to bear arms beyond the text of the 2nd amendment?

Whatever rights to bear arms there are, they come from the 2nd Amendment. It is absurd to stretch an Amendment about "well regulated Militia" to mean D.C. can't require people to store a handgun with a trigger lock because it would impinge on their ability to use it for personal protection. Yet that's what Scalia in the majority decided.

> what constitutes a true liberal originalist?

You keep missing my point; if anyone was actually an originalist, some of their decisions would seem conservative, some would seem liberal, because they would just obediently be following what the text says. No judge actually does that and that alone, I'm only aware of conservative judges that claim they do. The term "originalist" was invented by conservatives so that's not surprising.

I am not saying all conservative judges make wrong decisions and liberal judges make right ones. I'm saying conservatives attack outcomes they don't like as not being "originalist" instead of being honest that it's an outcome they don't like. They're hypocrites.

But this is not really relevant to the original claim of the Federalist Society undermining democracy; I think it would go to far to say to be conservative is to be anti-democratic. If the Federalist Society is anti-democratic, it's more in their means than in their ends.

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#59

Post by berberous »

extra88 wrote: post #51
chub500 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe for the last 30 years or so (after the late Antonin Scalia) 'conservative' judge is almost synonymous with originalist. I think you may be falling victim to correlation is not causation? IE there are no liberal originalists by definition (above). If I'm wrong, could you give me an example of a liberal originalist? I would be very happy to be wrong about this. The correlation here is that conservative presid…

Conservative judges have no problem with legislation from the bench when they're the ones doing it. Again, they pretend to use an impartial "originalist" principle when decision-making but cherry-pick the "original" texts they use or ignore them when they would lead to ruling in a way conservatives don't like. How is it "originalist" to take the 2nd Amendment, which refers to "well regulated Militia," and using it to…

How many of Scalia’s opinions have you actually read?

Humans are not perfect, and I think all judges can delude themselves with motivated reasoning at times, and all judges have some bad opinions, but having read many SCOTUS opinions, Scalia always struck me as one of the more logical and thoughtful members of the court.

Re: Charles Koch Says His Partisanship Was a Mistake

#60

Post by chub500 »

extra88 wrote: post #58
chub500 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_j6lRdktscE Do you seriously think Scalia cared about protecting people's rights to bear arms beyond the text of the 2nd amendment? Again, what constitutes a true liberal originalist? These justices are not pursuing power but trying to interpret law - and they get accused of undermining democracy...

> Do you seriously think Scalia cared about protecting people's rights to bear arms beyond the text of the 2nd amendment? Whatever rights to bear arms there are, they come from the 2nd Amendment. It is absurd to stretch an Amendment about "well regulated Militia" to mean D.C. can't require people to store a handgun with a trigger lock because it would impinge on their ability to use it for personal protection. Yet th…

Let me push back one more time. If what you're saying is true, and no judge no matter how much integrity they have can be truly originalist - what do we do? Is our judicial system dead? Should we even try to pick originalists or give up on a third branch and let it be a super legislature? What comes of rule of law? Doesn't this seem like a problem?
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