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I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

robdobson.com

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Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#191

Post by dredmorbius »

ChrisMLane wrote: post #96
WalterBright wrote: post #56

I wouldn't buy a house with such a system in it, and I doubt anybody else will, either. Who wants to become an expert on these systems just to turn the lights on? Not a chance. I considered these systems when my house was built, and am very glad I didn't get them. I turn the switch on, the lights go on, I turn it off, the lights go off. I replace a bulb now and then. That's it! I'm very happy with it. But what I did…

Could you explain what the star configuration is please? I'm not familiar with it and am currently assuming that just means cables to each wall from the ceiling.

Star network topology:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_topology#Star

Each endpoint connects directly to the hub, rather than as a ring, daisy-chain, tree, or mesh.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#192

Post by rootusrootus »

lqet wrote: post #54
mattlondon wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have found it useful when you have your hands full (e.g. hands full of shopping, or carrying a baby with a dirty nappy/diaper to a changing table are just two examples where you can just shout to google/alexa to turn it on), or turning stuff on/off when you are away from home (e.g. automatically at sunset, turning heating on when you are on your way home etc), or you left the lights on and you are already in bed et…

I am sure that this is a cool feature, but I am really having a hard time wrapping my head around all the technological overhead required here to avoid having to flip a switch with your elbow or hip if your hands are full. "First world problems" seems like an understatement here.

The lights are just gravy for me. They're super cheap, and it is handy to be able to turn a bunch on or off with one command. Or have them turn on when you get home, etc.

What really keeps me going with home automation is the door & lock control. Being able to monitor the status of the garage doors and the deadbolts on all doors is worth the price of admission. The kids each have their own code to get in the house, I can lock the doors from afar if they get left open or unlocked, I can check the status at any time, etc. I have the system close & lock everything at bedtime if it isn't already, and it communicates status to me as things are opened/closed/locked/unlocked.

I could give up the lighting if I had to. I could just use the built-in scheduling on the thermostat. No biggy. But the locks and doors functionality is worth the effort.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#193

Post by quickthrowman »

WalterBright wrote: post #56

I wouldn't buy a house with such a system in it, and I doubt anybody else will, either. Who wants to become an expert on these systems just to turn the lights on? Not a chance. I considered these systems when my house was built, and am very glad I didn't get them. I turn the switch on, the lights go on, I turn it off, the lights go off. I replace a bulb now and then. That's it! I'm very happy with it. But what I did…

> I did all that work myself because the electrician didn't understand words like "crosstalk" and I didn't want to find out after I moved in that the wires in finished walls didn't work.

You hired a bad electrician. Any good electrician knows you can’t run power and data in the same conduit or pathway. NEC requires a divider in any junction box that contains low-voltage and line-voltage power, and also requires separate conduits/pathways for low-voltage and line-voltage power (can’t use the same stud hole to feed both through)

Spend more money on the electrician, and they’ll be better at their jobs.

Edit: I run electrical work

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#194

Post by shawnz »

quickthrowman wrote: post #193
WalterBright wrote: post #56

I wouldn't buy a house with such a system in it, and I doubt anybody else will, either. Who wants to become an expert on these systems just to turn the lights on? Not a chance. I considered these systems when my house was built, and am very glad I didn't get them. I turn the switch on, the lights go on, I turn it off, the lights go off. I replace a bulb now and then. That's it! I'm very happy with it. But what I did…

> I did all that work myself because the electrician didn't understand words like "crosstalk" and I didn't want to find out after I moved in that the wires in finished walls didn't work. You hired a bad electrician. Any good electrician knows you can’t run power and data in the same conduit or pathway. NEC requires a divider in any junction box that contains low-voltage and line-voltage power, and also requires separ…

> Any good electrician knows you can’t run power and data in the same conduit or pathway. NEC requires a divider in any junction box that contains low-voltage and line-voltage power, and also requires separate conduits/pathways for low-voltage and line-voltage power (can’t use the same stud hole to feed both through)

Sure, but aren't those rules for safety purposes and have nothing to do with crosstalk/interference?

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#195

Post by rootusrootus »

WalterBright wrote: post #56

I wouldn't buy a house with such a system in it, and I doubt anybody else will, either. Who wants to become an expert on these systems just to turn the lights on? Not a chance. I considered these systems when my house was built, and am very glad I didn't get them. I turn the switch on, the lights go on, I turn it off, the lights go off. I replace a bulb now and then. That's it! I'm very happy with it. But what I did…

Yeah the guy in the article went farther than I would. I have a lot of connected switches but they are still functional as dumb switches. If you moved into my house they'd all work like normal, you might notice they didn't feel exactly the same as an old-fashioned switch but when you push up they go on, down they go off. I'd of course let the buyer know they had options to connect them, but they could just forget about that and go on with their life.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#196

Post by alufers »

Maha-pudma wrote: post #61

I don't get it. What's the point in these systems? Genuinely. Why would I ever need this? Just like a "smart" doorbell, fridge, meter. I would love for someone to be able to explain the benefits to me over the normal, cheap, completely working "dump" version. The only "smart" device I own is a TV and it is crap, worse thing I've ever bought.

I have added a Sonnoff mini with Tasmota to my light switch in my room. Whenever I cannot see my USB ports on my computer at night I just press a macro button on my keyboard, and without taking off my headphones I can see everything. Kinda dumb, but it makes me happy every-time I don't have to move my ass.

Nevertheless sometimes (once every 6 months maybe?) the Tasmota box looses connection with my WiFi network and I have to power cycle it via the breaker box to reset it.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#197

Post by quickthrowman »

bhickey wrote: post #110
hondadriver wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in The Netherlands and probably other parts of Europe, you are not allowed to run electricity and network or phone cables through the same tubes. Also the number of wires allowed in a single tube is limited. Many houses have concrete walls, floors and ceilings, so you don't run extra tubes easily... Reconfiguring switches is next to impossible and via existing switch wires you can dim/switch the lights but not c…

Conduit isn't very common in US residential construction. Electricians will generally cut a hole in the drywall, drill a hole in the floor plate and tack the cabling to the framing.

Even if you aren’t using conduit you cannot use the same pathways for line-voltage and low-voltage wiring. You need to drill separate holes thru the studs to run NM in one and Cat6 in the other. You also need a divider in a multi-gang box if it contains line-voltage and low-voltage wiring.

Source: US National Electrical Code

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#198

Post by quickthrowman »

ComputerGuru wrote: post #162
bhickey wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conduit isn't very common in US residential construction. Electricians will generally cut a hole in the drywall, drill a hole in the floor plate and tack the cabling to the framing.

I think that is very location dependent. Here in the Midwest, Romex still isn’t a thing and most residential construction still requires (effectively or otherwise) 1/2” electrical conduits for all high voltage wiring. Older construction might be the horrible BX/AC instead.

NM wiring is extremely common in every state (except for Illinois) and NM is allowed without restrictions in multi-family stick-built housing up to four stories. You must live in Chicago or some other restrictive AHJ.

There are still existing functional knob and tube wiring systems that are 100 years old

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#199

Post by s_fischer »

_0o6v wrote: post #15

This has got me riled. 1. I hope all this electronic and plastic junk gets properly recycled. 2. Learn to be more prudent with your money. 3. £6k would have funded a lot of solar lights in developing countries through SolarAid or similar.

I don't disagree with point #1 but can you honestly say you've never purchased something that you truly believed would work better than it did? I'm pretty sure the OP did not intend to rip out his system and waste £6k when he started this project.

Re: I Ripped Out a £6k Lighting System

#200

Post by bleepblorp »

WalterBright wrote: post #91
stinos wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the electrician didn't understand words like "crosstalk" Can you explain what the problem is? I also run cat5 (or maybe even cat6, don't remember) to every room, most even multiple times, just put it in walls/cailings/whatever worked and all 40 or so sockets work just fine. I turn the switch on, the lights go on, I turn it off, the lights go off. I run a star configuration for switches and light points, where all swi…

Crosstalk is when two wires are close together, one induces a voltage in the other (it's how transformers work). The trouble with house wiring is if you run a phone line parallel and close to an A/C line, it will induce a 60 cycle hum in the phone line, which will drive you utterly mad. The electrician was installing the cat3 phone wires in the same holes as the A/C wires. It was guaranteed to induce a hum. The corre…

I would seriously question the overall competence of any electrician who ran any low voltage cable in direct contact with AC power cables. This practice is not permitted by the electrical code. An electrician who does not respect that code requirement might be cutting corners with the code in other areas, too.

While the level of knowledge among electricians regarding network wiring is gradually increasing, the conventional wisdom for anyone who wants network wiring installed professionally is to hire a contractor that specializes in low voltage wiring.

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