Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Empathy and perspective taking: How social skills are built

cbs.mpg.de

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 78 posts

Re: Empathy and perspective taking: How social skills are built

#61

Post by bigbubba »

the-smug-one wrote: post #59
bigbubba wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those who do it well, which is most of us, Most people have not read that book nor any like it. Most people appear pleasant because that's the way they genuinely are, not because they went to a seminar or read a book to learn how to fake it.

That's just not true. I often fail to be pleasant when I am in England, because the culture is different enough that when I try to be nice I mess it up in some manner. We can have the intent of being pleasant but fail to appear pleasant.

That doesn't conflict with anything I said.

Re: Empathy and perspective taking: How social skills are built

#63

Post by bliss »

mkolodny wrote: post #58
bliss wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, empathy is a bit fake, you have to guess and I for one will do my very best to guess what others are thinking and feeling, but at the end of the day, being in someone else's shoes is a guess. Compassion is entirely solid though. Both are needed.

Instead of guessing how someone feels and what they are thinking, you can ask people what they're feeling and thinking directly. Sometimes people will tell you what they're feeling and thinking without you having to ask - then you can empathize with them just by listening. I think of "empathy" as a synonym for "understanding".

I'm pretty lousy at asking people what they feel, my job role, thankfully, has an optional people management component, I've opted out. However a mandatory (welcome) part of my role is mentoring, coaching, call it what you will. I need to listen to junior members of staff sharing their woes and it's a two way flow of ideas, they often share, or overshare their difficult life moments, and at that point, I hang up my "mentor" role and just listen, I'm not their manager, I'm just their colleage, in fact, their friend. Empathy, as I said is guessing, but I do everything I can to do my best guess

Re: Empathy and perspective taking: How social skills are built

#64

Post by bliss »

rectang wrote: post #56
bliss wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, empathy is a bit fake, you have to guess and I for one will do my very best to guess what others are thinking and feeling, but at the end of the day, being in someone else's shoes is a guess. Compassion is entirely solid though. Both are needed.

My concern with "compassion" is that you can have perfect "compassion" for an adversary you regard as "objectively evil": they may be evil but they're pitiful. Whereas "empathy", to my mind, calls upon you to strive for understanding, however imperfect — making it harder to dehumanize the adversary. But dehumanization tempered by compassion is still better than its pure, distilled form.

"however iperfect" encapsulates exactly my point - we can't know - but jeez, we try as best as we can

Re: Empathy and perspective taking: How social skills are built

#65

Post by bawolff »

snazz wrote: post #35
_jy3k wrote: post #33

"Being able to feel empathy and to take in the other person's perspective – these are two abilities through which we understand what is going on in the other person's mind." How about being able to feel oneself and take one's own perspective, for a change. What a strange world, where every one takes someone else's perspective.

Humans are pretty good at taking our own perspectives. If everyone did that instead of empathizing with others, our conversations would all run in circles and we would be an even more polarized society.

I actually don't think this is true. I've met lots of people who are self-deluding or don't conciously recognize their own patterns. We all have a story we tell about ourselves, but it often isn't the true story.

That said, i don't think any of that conflicts with learning to empathisize with others. Understanding yourself is just as important as understanding other people. Personally i suspect they are related skills.

Re: Empathy and perspective taking: How social skills are built

#66

Post by kgarten »

BurningFrog wrote: post #28
kgarten wrote: post #7

I'm wondering why empathy is such a hot topic... , I don't think our goal is to empathize more with other people. Really liked the point Paul Bloom made with his book about Rational Compasion: https://www.amazon.com/Against-Empathy-Case-Rational-Compass... We should be able to understand how smb feels, not feel the same. Personally, I'm quite interested in why/when people are synchronizing their movements. Shameless…

From https://www.grammarly.com/blog/empathy-sympathy/ - Empathy is a term we use for the ability to understand other people’s feelings as if we were having them ourselves. - Sympathy refers to the ability to take part in someone else’s feelings, mostly by feeling sorrowful about their misfortune. I think you may have confused the terms.

The article underlines my understanding of empathy.

I think Empathy can be counterproductive ... because if you feel like the person (I mean feel like the person ...) you might be less likely to be able to help them.

"By becoming “the wounded person,” he vicariously experiences their suffering. "

Re: Empathy and perspective taking: How social skills are built

#67

Post by kgarten »

darkerside wrote: post #24
kgarten wrote: post #7

I'm wondering why empathy is such a hot topic... , I don't think our goal is to empathize more with other people. Really liked the point Paul Bloom made with his book about Rational Compasion: https://www.amazon.com/Against-Empathy-Case-Rational-Compass... We should be able to understand how smb feels, not feel the same. Personally, I'm quite interested in why/when people are synchronizing their movements. Shameless…

Let's say a friend tells you their mother has died. You respond, "You must be very sad. What are you doing this weekend?" Your friend gets upset. Why? You understood what they were saying and acknowledged how they were feeling. What more is there to do? Does that hit home? If not, switch roles, so that your friend is the insensitive person who does understand how you feel, but doesn't feel the same way, because it's…

What I feel and how I act are two different thinks. You don't have to be emphatic to act in a reasonable way in your example. I would not ask about going out, not because I feel the same pain, but I know that my friend is hurt and I will hurt him more when I ask that. I don't have to feel the same way or similar to him to understand that. That's what rational compassion is about ...

Rational compassion: You understand the situation the other person is in and you make socially and emotionally the right decision (based on rational assessment).

Empathy: "the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings" emphasis on vicariously experiencing !

Empathy is often used to express that you are feeling the same of similar feeling as somebody else. From the Grammarly post below (from another poster that didn't understand my point):

"By becoming “the wounded person,” he vicariously experiences their suffering. "

Now imagine two doctors, one is empathic to your pain and one understands your pain with rational compassion.

The doctor who "feels" your pain might not be able to operate on you ... as he emphasizes too much. His feelings towards you hinder him.

Not to say empathy cannot be useful and is interesting. Yet, I feel it's overhyped and there are dangers focusing solemnly on it.

Re: Empathy and perspective taking: How social skills are built

#68

Post by kgarten »

loceng wrote: post #46
throw999666 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Empathy is painful. It should not be the goal. I think the outcome for civilization would not be optimal if many more people were empathic right now, we still need a mix. But there are degrees of empathic ability. Only a very few people like me ( I think the general population is comprised only less than 20% of people who are "empathic" to the extent whare if they try, or, are relationally close to someone t…

If empathy is painful to you then you have unhealed/unprocessed trauma that's been suppressed-repressed, and then being triggered.

"By becoming “the wounded person,” he vicariously experiences their suffering. " from the grammarly post.

Pain/Painful is in the definition of empathy ... "he action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empathy

So you don't have to have any drama. I have a very empathetic friend: it happens to him in any situation (meeting smb happy, sad, angry...). trauma is usually limited to a specific situation from the passed. Does not fit that case.

Re: Empathy and perspective taking: How social skills are built

#69

Post by kgarten »

BlueTemplar wrote: post #10
kgarten wrote: post #7

I'm wondering why empathy is such a hot topic... , I don't think our goal is to empathize more with other people. Really liked the point Paul Bloom made with his book about Rational Compasion: https://www.amazon.com/Against-Empathy-Case-Rational-Compass... We should be able to understand how smb feels, not feel the same. Personally, I'm quite interested in why/when people are synchronizing their movements. Shameless…

But understanding has an emotional part, and memory relies a lot on emotions. Trying to get rid of emotions might be harmful.

again ... I'm not trying to get rid of emotions. That's not what I'm proposing. I just think the idea/concept of feeling the same as somebody else is strange and has its own dangers.

Understand the others feelings, try to understand their point of view (also emotionally) that's great.

Having exactly the same feelings probably not. "Empathy :: the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings" from meridian webster.

Example: you meet a person who has a panic attack ... how is going to experience the feelings vicariously helping you?

Re: Empathy and perspective taking: How social skills are built

#70

Post by bluedino »

BurningFrog wrote: post #29
bluedino wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve taken these classes and it comes down to “be someone you aren’t in order to make conversation” It just feels so fake and scripted. I can easily tell in a business setting when people are just putting on their Dale Carnegie hat.

You can also think of it as "make an effort to act in a way others enjoy".

It also takes a lot of effort/energy to “handle” people with these techniques. Ask them this, ask them that. Give them two compliments, come up with an open ended question.
Post reply on HN