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They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

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Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#391

Post by triangleman »

hinkley wrote: post #186
bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

Just watched The Sound of Music again a few weeks ago. As a kid I just knew the bad guys come and the heroes outsmart them. These days, I see more and more the acting chops of Christopher Plummer - the bad guys are already here and all that's left is hope and trying to maintain a bubble for your children. From scene one he is a goose on a pond. Serene above the waterline but roiling below.

Ironically did you ever notice that The Sound of Music is actually sympathetic towards fascism under the surface?

http://www.critical-theory.com/watch-zizek-explain-why-the-s...

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#392

Post by taxicab »

prewett wrote: post #331

This is a troubling article in its own right, but what was more troubling is the realization I had 3/4 of the way down. At first I was thinking "yes, this is what Trump is doing, albeit incompetently. I feel like this guy, that I'm an alarmist but I can't prove anything." And then when it started talking about opposing opinions being shouted down, I realized that the "Progressives" might actually be doing the same th…

"Does this person deserve to be treated like a human being based off " isn't really acceptable in civil society and for good reason. Keep that stuff to 4chan, not in my workplace. That's not some sort of "leftist" thing.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#393

Post by triangleman »

hinkley wrote: post #171

All the Left politicians are talking about how they're going to spend this cycle rolling back what the last cycle rolled back and that's not what I want. We can absolutely do that, after . What I want is to know why we had a seated president who could get away with so much shit. A smarter autocrat would have taken us to a scarier place much faster. Mercifully, Hitler's dumbest lieutenant could talk circles around His…

Could you drill down to specific examples of things Trump did that you think no president should be able to do?

I'll go first but in an ironic way. Trump pulled out of the Paris climate accord which, if you peruse the Constitution [1], you might notice Obama entered the U.S. into seemingly illegally, without consent of Congress in the first place [2]. How did that happen? The Kyoto agreement was also never submitted to Congress for ratification [3]. And let me show my cards and say thank God we never ratified these documents, as that would be tantamount to allowing a world government control over our economy. Treaties you see are the supreme law of the land around here [4].

I don't know if you'd consider Trump's action on this particular treaty to be part of the shit he "got away with" but I find it to be a fitting example of something your average Republican president would probably just go along with, knowing it's a toothless treaty that would never be ratified. But Trump, for political or whatever reasons, felt like reversing Obama's policy in the same way he implemented it. And Congress having no part in the whole affair.

In fact the vast majority of what Trump did was in the form of executive order, most of which had very little impact on state's or individual rights.

So yeah what are these things that Trump did that Congress was either remiss or enabling him to do? If it's stuff related to the border, immigration policy, foreign policy, or the like, that's mostly outside Congress's purview, except the aforementioned treaty power.

Just trying to figure out what's the ethically sketchy stuff that should have been checked by Congress or perhaps the courts. That way we can narrow down a set of principles that could possibly apply to Biden (assuming he's elected).

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/article-2/sec...

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol#Non-ratificatio...

[4] https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/article-6/clause-2/

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#394

Post by svrb »

pmachinery wrote: post #184
panax wrote: post #142

The most chilling part is "But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on th…

Unfortunately if/when people do speak out or rise up about abuses of/from authority they are countered by bootlickers, or people who genuinely believe 'it could never happen here'.

Or people who believe 'my side could never do it'.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#395

Post by svrb »

chordalkeyboard wrote: post #263
gfodor wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is probably true for armed conflict, but for civil conflicts in liberal societies, I think it's fair to assume that over time things converge to a more moral and just society over time. (So, the "victors" can be presumed legitimately moral.) However, this has an assumption that a society is liberal, and provides the free exchange of ideas, which is something that seems to ebb-and-flow itself.

The free exchange of ideas falls prey to the paradox of tolerance.

The paradox of tolerance demonstrates a fatal flaw in the concept of "tolerance", not in the free exchange of ideas. I have become increasingly convinced that the concept of "tolerance" has been corrupted over time until it became susceptible to the paradox, and thus able to act as a strawman of (classical) liberal beliefs.

You will find absolutely nothing in "equality before the law" which falls victim to the paradox.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#396

Post by malinens »

awb wrote: post #159
amirkdv wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuinely curious: what are some historically significant examples of "false positives"? By which I assume you mean a time when people rose to resist something they didn't really have to.

The anti Women's right to vote movement, anti Civil Rights movement, anti Gay marriage movement, etc. A vocal minority was stoking fears of the implications of recognizing the rights of the disenfranchised as the imminent breakdown of society, family and law and order. Turns out they were just bigoted.

all of the anti things You just wrote had quite popular support in society at that time

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#397

Post by throwaway1723 »

weakfish wrote: post #389
throwaway1723 wrote: post #347

And today it's absolutely the same situation like the one described in the article. History taught no one. Once again, no one seems to be willing to resist the beginnings and consider the end. The beginnings go by the name COVID-19 and include lockdowns, closure of national borders, obligatory mask-or-starve-to-death, social distancing, temp checks, QR codes assigned to people in order to leave home, and other totali…

I know you probably think you're right, but I can't help read this with pity that you think you're in the same position as the precursor to a totalitarian state because people don't want to kill their grandparents.

There is always an excuse that "this time is not the same as before", and this is exactly why the history keeps repeating itself.

There's always a deception that makes the most part of population believe THEY'RE right, be it a virus that kills elderly, a foe nation weaving plots against the fatherland, whatever, it's literally anything that makes people act with pride as if they were fighting the greatest evil. But the Hell is paved with best intentions. Failing to understand that will keep you feeling pity for those who predicted what comes next, and then feeling pity for yourself for you did not listen when it was not too late.

Look, we are all a death threat to each other, but there's one thing called immunity that keeps us from dying out. Elderly always were less immune; are you 100% sure that none of your droplets ever killed someone less immune back in the reckless unmasked days? Someone with a rare condition? Did you track fates of all people you ever contacted?

You people seem to have some panic button in your minds that has been activated by some great NLP masters, which now prevents you from accepting simple facts of life and death. Especially of death. You are willing to wrap life in masks and barbwire, to make it immobile and constrained, to eat and inject all kinds of poisons, to accept any kind of atrocious attitude and orders just in order to keep this undead state for indefinitely long. But that's not going to happen, and you all know that. The clock is ticking for everyone. The only way out of this mess is to live a good fearless life and enjoy every second of it.

And I highly recommend watching these 2 videos in succession to all the good intended people who believe there's nothing ominous going on right now.

Berlin in 1936: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es6f7K4c-y8

Berlin in 1945: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5i9k7s9X_A

Be well and do try to join the dots...

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#398

Post by dennis_jeeves »

aazaa wrote: post #122

Imagine you're living through the events described in the essay. You know exactly where things are heading and that the situation is dire. You're willing to do whatever it takes to prevent the inevitable from playing out. What's your plan and your next move?

You have to flee, if you can.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#399

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway1723 wrote: post #397
weakfish wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you probably think you're right, but I can't help read this with pity that you think you're in the same position as the precursor to a totalitarian state because people don't want to kill their grandparents.

There is always an excuse that "this time is not the same as before", and this is exactly why the history keeps repeating itself. There's always a deception that makes the most part of population believe THEY'RE right, be it a virus that kills elderly, a foe nation weaving plots against the fatherland, whatever, it's literally anything that makes people act with pride as if they were fighting the greatest evil. But t…

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