Live data from Hacker News

They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

press.uchicago.edu

261–270 of 426 posts

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But power corrupts absolutely ... Even accounting for the misquote (no hate :) I disagree. History furnishes us with examples aplenty of people who were powerful yet uncorrupted. I believe Frank Herbert was closer to the truth when he wrote: > “All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people…

The problem is, more of us are corruptible than we think.

Well, per Herbert's quote, I think the attractiveness of power is directly and inversely proportional to how corrupt(ible) a person is. The best leaders are the servant ones, who see leadership as a burden to bear, and to assume only begrudgingly as need thrusts it upon them. Those who look to it for the ability to change the world, even with the best intentions, are imminently corruptible; they're already approaching it with the idea that they know best, and others who disagree are wrong and need to be kept subservient.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#262
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate? Who isn't living in reality here? This is not a far left position, and it's not the left that is driving FUD about US election integrity.

> What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate? You should think the same way about this as you do about the "russia hacked the election" cries about how the 2016 election was illegitimate.

I don't ever recall hearing that Russia hacked the election, not even in internet memes.

Russian interference however in the 2016 election is well documented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20....

The impeachment vote could have been easily avoided if Trump had come out and denounced Russian meddling and let the investigators do their jobs.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#263
post #235
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History is written by the victors. From this perspective, every successful resistance was necessary and every failed resistance was not. Take the American Civil War, for example. If you (still) believe in the cause, it was a true positive. If you don't, then it was a false positive. Or, to be less inflammatory, consider the French Revolution. Was that a true positive or false positive, especially considering the afte…

I think this is probably true for armed conflict, but for civil conflicts in liberal societies, I think it's fair to assume that over time things converge to a more moral and just society over time. (So, the "victors" can be presumed legitimately moral.) However, this has an assumption that a society is liberal, and provides the free exchange of ideas, which is something that seems to ebb-and-flow itself.

The free exchange of ideas falls prey to the paradox of tolerance.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#264
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not necessarily the actions, but the perceived intent by "the other side" that is important. Events become provocation draws provocation draws backlash, etc etc. I'm a fairly liberal person, but it doesn't take an inhuman amount of mental gymnastics to look at riots, anti-police sentiment, etc, and see a coordinated hostile agenda. I am lucky that I get to talk to both hardcore right and hardcore left people reg…

What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate? Who isn't living in reality here? This is not a far left position, and it's not the left that is driving FUD about US election integrity.

Let's hypothetically assume that Trump was ahead in the counts right now. Would Biden concede? Hillary Clinton is on record as having said "under no circumstances" concede the election. Would Biden's team not be looking at their legal options to challenge the result? Would Biden supporters not be losing their minds on social media, news media, and in the streets?

This was a very partisian election, in which half the country was not going to be happy with the result. I don't see a smooth acceptance of the outcome regardless of how it comes out.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#265
post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

Looks like I accidentally started a flame war here! Funtimes.

My answer to some common replies:

1) "But the [left/right] is much worse": you're sorta making my point. Even if the other "side" may be worse now, if you're honest with yourself, I'm sure you can see where your partisans have crossed some lines, too. And the whole point of this piece is authoritarianism and fascism grows slowly over time, so "We're slightly further down the fascism hill right now so we're better" isn't a heartening response

2) "This is 'Both sidesism'!!!" First of all, I don't claim there are good people on both sides, I claim there are bad people on both sides. Very bad, sycophantic people who see the worst in others, assume the worst motives, and are willing to stop at nothing, including murder, to achieve their ends. Yes, for many issues there is a "right" and a "wrong" and these could theoretically be discovered through empirical testing and observation. But we're not talking about individual issues here, we're talking about national / political identities and the complex social and tribal bonds that make people even choose "a side" in the first place.

3) "You have to speak out / choose a side, or are you morally complicit in evil" Don't entirely disagree. That said, extremism is polarizing and destructive of rationality and humane discourse, regardless of where it comes from. Just because we are all sort of forced to "pick a side" when the gravitational forces are so strong, that doesn't mean that the side we pick will be right all the time or even a force for moral good, just a temporary stopgap against moral evil. That doesn't mean you don't have a responsibility to identify evil and speak against it when you see it. It's just a lot harder for those people who see much evil amongst two large constituencies that see themselves as wholly Good, than it is for those people who are wholly convinced of their Good and the absolute Evil of the other side.

And although I don't claim to be either rational or in the middle, I do believe I am right about the creeping fascist tendencies present in the polar extremes of American politics -- and there's no better evidence of the truth of my comment that it is being downvoted and commented into oblivion by partisans on both sides :)

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#266
post #105

> "How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice — ‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certa…

> I think it's safe to fear unchecked power and those who are loyal to people instead of loyal to ideas For all its many failings, I think this is one of the benefits that religion (an particularly the form of religion popular in Europe during the the last 2000 years) can provide. By having a notion of some god, and a cannon, you can have a list of ideas that everyone considers good, and it makes such demagoguery a l…

Religion works this way: you make a false statement, and punish anyone who does not agree with it. From there you can derive and enforce any other false statement (Principle of Explosion). People in power routinely used this mechanism to make false statements allowing them to take what they want at the expense of others.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's safe to fear unchecked power and those who are loyal to people instead of loyal to ideas For all its many failings, I think this is one of the benefits that religion (an particularly the form of religion popular in Europe during the the last 2000 years) can provide. By having a notion of some god, and a cannon, you can have a list of ideas that everyone considers good, and it makes such demagoguery a l…

I don't see that at all. You can still end up in a theocracy with an inquisition for everyone who doesn't follow the dogma. Religion is perfectly exploitable for this and has been more often than not in history.

It's exploitable, sure, same as any shared ideology (twist it to your purposes, burn the heretics). But unlike ideologies that don't purport to be objective from humanity, religion carries the seed of its own undoing. Much like Martin Luther nailing his 95 theses to the church door, an abuse of the ideal can be countered by the ideal. I can't think of any non-religious ideology that has done that; countering those abusive ideologies requires ascribing to a different ideology. Nazism didn't defeat or replace Nazism, but Christianity has defeated Christianity before.

But that said, I agree that someone saying "God is on my side" is inherently problematic in a different way than just "I have the most power to enforce my will". Of course, I don't see that as a value judgement on the existence of religion; after all, regardless of my, or society's, beliefs, the power behind the individual is still there, or not, regardless of their claim of God's support.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#269
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are in a state of emergency where the government has taken pretty direct control of people's lives, and businesses only remain in existence due to massive government intervention. It is for a good cause. However a couple of years from now, there will remain a temptation to use the same tools to address whatever normal problems we have. And that is a big step towards a planned economy like the Soviet Union had. It…

> It is for a good cause. However a couple of years from now, there will remain a temptation to use the same tools to address whatever normal problems we have. And that is a big step towards a planned economy like the Soviet Union had. It is difficult for me to imagine another set of scenarios that could plausibly lead to popular support of a lockdown. Even our past lockdowns from this year were poorly enforced and b…

Yeah 9/11 definitely enhanced the surveillance state which is deeply unfortunate, but we had security screening for planes long before we had 9/11, and it wasn't just 9/11 that made the experience miserable, it was the 10 follow on attacks targeting different vulns in the screening process (liquids, shoes, blah blah).

Actually there was no attack involving liquids. There was "chatter" indicating that someone might be thinking of combining liquids to make a bomb. We freaked and instituted the rule. Then discovered that it was a false alarm.

But, having alerted everyone that terrorists could try to make a bomb that way, we now have the liquids rule. (Though the arbitrariness of 3 ounces is made clear by the rule that now lets 12 ounce bottles of hand sanitizer through...)

The security measures need to be decently strong because we vehemently refuse to employ the more effective authoritarian technique of flagging passengers based on history and demographics like they do in places like Israel (eg, simply flag anyone with a higher probability of being a muslim because most attacks were performed by muslims). We are actually resisting the aggressive response in this case.

There are two issues at play here.

The first is that for political reasons, we don't want to do enhanced checks against the actual biggest danger - Saudi Arabia. (Half the 9/11 bombers were from there.)

Second, targeting on the basis of religion poses some major Constitutional problems in the USA. And religious affiliation is not information that we can rely on having about people coming from elsewhere in the world.

And third, the supply of potential terrorists is sufficiently large and Al Qaeda sufficiently well-organized that they could simply choose terrorists who don't appear to fit whatever our screening criteria happened to be. Israel doesn't have that problem because there aren't a supply of people from around the world who are willing to die for the Palestinian cause. However we had a British guy carrying a bomb in his shoe, a Russian (well actually Chechen) who set off a bomb in Boston, a white American shooting up an army base in Texas, and a Nigerian who carried a bomb in his underwear.

This has nothing to do with terrorism or 9/11.

To the contrary. I lived in New York when 9/11 happened. A ton of office buildings went from no security guard to security guards. Other office buildings that I later worked in in Los Angeles made the same shift at about the same time.

The timing wasn't a coincidence.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#270
post #228
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 2016-2020 gave us a window into what it's like, I would say your last bit isn't quite right: Authoritarianism rises gradually and relies on people looking away from it, unable to confront inconvenient truths. I feel like many people paid a lot of attention, and confronted truths, and spoke out about it. Yet, Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not risk being shot in the streets at Step B, why…

I was not referring to any specific group of people. And you are right, there has been a great deal of attention and action. I think it is a healthy sign and may be a reason for cautious optimism, but this is a continuous effort and we need to remain vigilant.

Mostly I'm reflecting on how I had understood this document previously. I'd read portions before 2016, and I'm now thinking it was not quite precise enough. Maybe I'd revise your statement like this:

Authoritarianism rises gradually and relies on [a critical mass of] people looking away from it, unable to confront inconvenient truths.

The story of Germany paints a picture where no one speaks up. Yet, as we've seen it can still happen with less than universal complicity. As a result I think the lesson shifts.

Post reply on HN