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So you've made a mistake and it's public

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Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#311

Post by variable11 »

nfoz wrote: post #210
ethbr0 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To preface, we're talking about people with jackasses-tendencies here. Normal, well-adjusted people don't like to make their colleagues feel bad. But as you say, it's also been my experience that apology and... "ownership"(?) are two very different things in American (Southern) culture. "I'm sorry I did X" seems to signal weakness and invite criticism, if people are already so inclined. "I did X. It wasn't the best a…

As a Canadian, I was quick to realize that the mere word "sorry" has a different meaning to some people down south. In Canada I'll just say it casually to mean a polite "hope I'm not troubling you" or "sorry that happened to you", and never thought of it as immediately declaring responsibility let alone fragility. But in the US, I've been pounced on for a casual use of that word, as if I'd announced failure and that…

I would never pounce on someone for saying "sorry", but it does annoy me when speakers of other versions of English use it so constantly that it's insincere. It's not meant to be a space-filler word like "Uh" or "hum" or "yeah."

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#312

Post by nicoburns »

fairity wrote: post #262
nicoburns wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crucial to society. It's in the best interest of the accused that other people implement steps 6 and 7. And so realistically they ought to be implementing them too. My point is that we shouldn't just be looking out for our interests. We should be working co-operatively to look out for everybody's interests. Ultimately this benefits ourselves too, but that's not why we should do it.

I think the current system is broken. We should be trying to align our incentives. Urging people to act against their own self-interests is self-defeating.

I don't really see how

6. Set a roadmap to rehabilitation/mitigation.

and

7. Actually follow #6

are against anyone's self-interest. It's about holding yourself accountable for you actions.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#313

Post by Igelau »

screye wrote: post #94

In the age of social media I would suggest a different approach to addressing public mistakes. 1. Go silent. > Complete public blackout. No denying, no accepting. The people want retribution, not justice. The media blackout is essential. 2. Reflect on it privately and quietly. 3. If not in violation of #1, apologize to the individual people/entity affected in private. 4. Once the mob dissipates, address the issue pub…

Wikimedia is probably insulated in enough of its own groupthink to get away with their list. In the cannibal crab bucket of the real world, this list is way more practical.

> people want retribution, not justice

This. People desperately want to feel like they championed a cause, and the cheapest way to get that kick is by demanding your head on a platter on Twitter.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#314

Post by darkerside »

ethbr0 wrote: post #187
DoreenMichele wrote: post #172

I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…

To preface, we're talking about people with jackasses-tendencies here. Normal, well-adjusted people don't like to make their colleagues feel bad. But as you say, it's also been my experience that apology and... "ownership"(?) are two very different things in American (Southern) culture. "I'm sorry I did X" seems to signal weakness and invite criticism, if people are already so inclined. "I did X. It wasn't the best a…

I think it's quite a literal difference actually. Apologizing without further explanation can imply that you don't know what went wrong but that you accept responsibility anyway. You've literally volunteered for the role of scapegoat.

Your latter statement implies an observation of a cause and effect relationship. "It was wrong", especially if followed by "because..." shows that you know _why_ it was a mistake and that you'll be able to rectify it in the future.

It truly is a thing for people to feel anxious and upset and apologize without understanding what they did wrong, and it is an admission of weakness. In a better world, it wouldn't be pounced upon. But in this world, I'd recommend that people keep a cool head and focus on observations of consequences, not acceptance of blame.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#315

Post by wwv25 »

shirakawasuna wrote: post #301
samatman wrote: post #108

So this one time, our main customer database fell over. The primary key wasn't wide enough, we hit 2 billion rows, and everyone panicked. We had been working unwise hours for several days, and we got the fix together, and I made a mistake: I pushed it directly to production. Man, my boss was really mad; no one had been getting enough sleep and we were all stressed. I apologized profusely and said it would never happe…

Something important about that situation is the power dynamic. You were not in a position of power, your boss was, and you were looking to defuse the situation and take ownership of a mistake. Your point is correct - there was a systematic failure at multiple levels of the operation that led to this being possible and even likely (too many hours, bad practices). In such a situation, multiple mistakes were made. If th…

If your primary goal is to minimize the damage of your mistake to maximize your political gains, then yes, you're right.

When dealing with actual, non-hypothetical humans, you should be able to set your ego aside to meet them on a human level and address them as such.

Too many in this thread fear of being perceived as weak, but I find that being an unapologetic asshole is just as bad.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#317

Post by darkerside »

This presupposes a very important thing, which is, how do you define a mistake? Is it a decision that other people are unhappy with, even if you still think it was right? That you yourself are unhappy with, even if others approve? What if you've made a decision with mixed results, bad and good? Was that a mistake? A partial mistake? Are "mistakes" on a gradient, and if so, is there a tipping point at which you follow the outlined procedure?

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#318

Post by justatdotin »

laughinghan wrote: post #232
justatdotin wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO 'truth and reconciliation' should just focus on 'truth'. We don't owe war criminals reconciliation, but they owe us the truth.

To clarify, the important thing about "reconciliation" is not about reconciling with war criminals, but about reconciling with supporters of war criminals, which are usually a pretty significant portion (sometimes the overwhelming majority) of the civilian population of the region or community that the war criminal is from. Often, those supporters have been on the receiving end of pretty serious hardships themselves.…

fair call, I know how that applies to collaborators from within targeted communities,

but I've also seen it wrongfully directed towards oppressors who never knew good relations with their subjects: we can't 'reconcile' if we never were friends.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#319

Post by dosman33 »

They forgot to mention the part where the goal posts get moved and you have to keep apologizing each time this happens. You may find yourself running out of rope as you are pushed further and further out until you don't have much left to give.

Modesty and realizing you've made a mistake are good qualities, no doubt. But those traits will be used against you if you foolishly think others will be also acting in good faith when they publicly point out your mistake. If you wish to publicly apologize that's fine, but don't for a second fall for the notion that this will appease the mob. They want blood when they smell it in the water and each apology just squirts more blood into the water for them to feed off of.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#320

Post by mannykannot »

aidenn0 wrote: post #152
mannykannot wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denying that you have made a mistake is likely to piss off the people who would otherwise be willing to move on. As the "mob", which may or may not exist in any given situation, is not going to be swayed by protests of innocence, the former are the only people you should care about.

In the current "us vs them" of politics, apologizing does nothing to appease "them" while making you seem weaker to "us" and denying it means you will be given the benefit of the doubt by "us." If e.g. Kavanaugh had admitted assaulting Ms. Ford and apologized, do you think enough Democrats would have said "Apology accepted" and voted to confirm to make up for the Republicans who would be unwilling to vote to confirm…

Well, you do have something of a point here: if you have done something that is illegal or widely regarded as reprehensible, then it is usually in your best interests to deny it - but it is quite obvious that the article we're all nominally discussing here is not about such situations.

I also find it interesting how the issue of admitting to making mistakes is being conflated with apologizing. While they are related, there is an important difference: a person who will never apologize is merely immature, while one who never admits to making mistakes might be a dangerous liability to himself and others, and is unfit for positions of responsibility.

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