Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

press.uchicago.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

361–370 of 426 posts

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#361

Post by _iyig »

jolux wrote: post #175
_iyig wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The armed occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge was also “mostly peaceful.” Much more peaceful than CHAZ/CHOP, in fact. I am friends with people who lived close by and visited the CHAZ/CHOP, and I watched live-streams from the CHAZ nearly 24/7 for the entire span of its existence. It was a lawless area patrolled by gun wielding far-left activists who routinely harassed journalists, ripped phones out of streamers’…

Where's your evidence that the security team were responsible for the shooting deaths of several people?

Here is a protestor describing in vivid detail the killing of Antonio Mays Jr. by CHOP security, minutes after it happened while his blood is still wet on the ground. Clipped from Omari Salisbury’s stream (warning - disturbing):

https://youtube.com/watch?v=q5bA-iUPvqI&t=1m27s

Lorenzo Anderson was shot inside CHOP (though not by the “security team”), and died after amateur CHOP medics and confused city EMS flubbed his medevac. EMS couldn’t get to him quickly since the shooting scene wasn’t able to be secured.

https://www.kuow.org/stories/seattle-police-and-fire-confusi...

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#362

Post by m_mueller »

throwaway11320 wrote: post #335
throwaway23452 wrote: post #179

The context of this being shared is obvious, but I want to point out that both sides of the American divide right now would likely instinctively identify the other (or their presidential candidate) as the Hitler in this scenario. I say this not to argue that one, or both, or neither, has no reason to make that connection. I say this to illustrate that it's easy to look at superficial signifiers - especially when satu…

It's a shame comments like this require throwaway accounts on hacker news. People refuse to consider the other sides perspective, insisting that they are right without doing the mental exercise to even consider the other side having a shred of truth or valuable thought. There are very smart people on all sides of the political spectrum. What makes it worse, is if you don't take the time to consider the other side's p…

I'm not American, but is there really two sides to consider when one calls a US election stolen and has started to replace military officials? I call that an attempt at a coup.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#363

Post by superdude264 »

solarhoma wrote: post #337
prewett wrote: post #331

This is a troubling article in its own right, but what was more troubling is the realization I had 3/4 of the way down. At first I was thinking "yes, this is what Trump is doing, albeit incompetently. I feel like this guy, that I'm an alarmist but I can't prove anything." And then when it started talking about opposing opinions being shouted down, I realized that the "Progressives" might actually be doing the same th…

And there you go. When you tell others their thoughts are wrong you yourself become authoritarian.

Yeah, like who is to say 1+1=2?

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#364

Post by bmmayer1 »

dang wrote: post #336
bmmayer1 wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi dang -- I appreciate what you're trying to do, but please understand it was neither my intent to start one or perpetuate a flame war, nor was my comment inflammatory in any reasonable sense of the word. Seems unfair to single me out here, given how perfectly bland my comment was, especially when compared to other comments made in this thread.

I get that it wasn't your intent, but you're underestimating how provocative it was. That's standard for internet comments. Most provocation is unintentional, which why it always feels like other people cause the problem. There's a sense in which the root comment of a flamewar is responsible for the flamewar whether it was intended or not: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... Still, if you…

Fair enough. Although to be clear, I was being sarcastic about it being "funtimes." I hate flame wars and really didn't seek to invite or perpetuate it, nor did I think my original or follow-up comment would invite one.

Thanks for the explanation and for the great work you do moderating this community!

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#365

Post by disown »

frenchyatwork wrote: post #157
awb wrote: post #105

> "How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice — ‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certa…

> I think it's safe to fear unchecked power and those who are loyal to people instead of loyal to ideas For all its many failings, I think this is one of the benefits that religion (an particularly the form of religion popular in Europe during the the last 2000 years) can provide. By having a notion of some god, and a cannon, you can have a list of ideas that everyone considers good, and it makes such demagoguery a l…

> For all its many failings, I think this is one of the benefits that religion (an particularly the form of religion popular in Europe during the the last 2000 years) can provide.

Europe was home to the most horrific religious violence in human history. From the pogrooms of the views to the spanish inquisition to the horrors of protestant and catholic rivalry. Even nazism drew upon centuries of european religious past.

> By having a notion of some god, and a cannon, you can have a list of ideas that everyone considers good, and it makes such demagoguery a little more difficult.

Actually it makes such demagoguery much easier as it makes it easier to demonize others - infidel, unbeliever, christ killers, apostate, etc. Religion does half the work for the demogogue.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#366

Post by paulnechifor »

coliveira wrote: post #60
bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

"Great people on both sides", that's the rally chant of the US president...

That's intentionally taken out of context. He specifically said that nazis and racists are not included and that they should be condemned.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#367

Post by paulnechifor »

mmastrac wrote: post #79
rootusrootus wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the left complained that Trump became president while several million more people wanted his opponent to win, characterizing that as 'stealing the election' does not seem particularly unfair. And given the oddly pervasive connections between Trump's family and Russia, I can't really fault people for thinking there might very well be a connection. An awful lot of smoke, there is.

Honestly, the _incredibly_ numerous sexual assault complaints against him should have disqualified him at the start, especially when combined with his publicly indecent behaviour.

If you allow for someone to be disqualified based on accusations which haven't been tried in court how are you going to prevent that from being weaponized? In fact, isn't that what they tried to do to Biden this election?

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#368

Post by throwaway23452 »

m_mueller wrote: post #362
throwaway11320 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a shame comments like this require throwaway accounts on hacker news. People refuse to consider the other sides perspective, insisting that they are right without doing the mental exercise to even consider the other side having a shred of truth or valuable thought. There are very smart people on all sides of the political spectrum. What makes it worse, is if you don't take the time to consider the other side's p…

I'm not American, but is there really two sides to consider when one calls a US election stolen and has started to replace military officials? I call that an attempt at a coup.

The way I see it, there are three sides right now: the left, the right, and Donald Trump. Much (not all) of the right has been convinced that their only hope of saving the country from an evil, terrible fate is to throw in with Trump. Trump himself acts out of pure, unadulterated narcissism. I honestly think accusing him of attempted coup is giving him too much credit: he simply does whatever he wants, at any given moment. He doesn't want to lose, so he says he didn't lose (without any real plan to prevent it). He is a petulant child.

Here's what I know: I have lots of family and some friends on the right. And as confusing and frustrating as the past four years have been, I continue to believe that most of them are good people. I have the ability to mentally frame things in such a way that I can see where they're coming from, how they slipped down this slope, why they think Trump really is their last hope. The reality of the situation - and all of the things that really are very wrong with it - is extremely complicated. But labeling all conservatives as nazis is not only wildly inaccurate, it further marginalizes people and pushes them towards more and more ethical compromises that they feel are necessary to ensure the continuation of their way of life. Nazis exist, and they do tend to align themselves with the right, but treating them as representative of the whole is a gross oversimplification that we can't afford to be making.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#369

Post by throwaway11320 »

m_mueller wrote: post #362
throwaway11320 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a shame comments like this require throwaway accounts on hacker news. People refuse to consider the other sides perspective, insisting that they are right without doing the mental exercise to even consider the other side having a shred of truth or valuable thought. There are very smart people on all sides of the political spectrum. What makes it worse, is if you don't take the time to consider the other side's p…

I'm not American, but is there really two sides to consider when one calls a US election stolen and has started to replace military officials? I call that an attempt at a coup.

"You can run the best campaign, you can even be the nominee. And you can have the election stolen from you" - Hillary Clinton (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77i_pC3lp04)

"Why is Trump making these controversial staffing changes now? No one knows for sure, but it’s probably not as sinister as some fear. When the resignations and appointments were announced, some worried that a sinister plot was afoot — that Trump loyalists were “burrowing” into the Defense Department so they couldn’t be removed when Biden takes office, or that there was some sort of coverup going on, or even that Trump was setting the stage for a coup. But experts I spoke to doubt those explanations, and suspect what’s really going on is that Trump finally had an opening to clean house at the Pentagon with the election now over, and that he’s putting in people more amenable to his wishes in order to finally accomplish some of the policies the Esper-led Pentagon had pushed back on — such as withdrawing all remaining US troops from Afghanistan before Christmas."

https://www.vox.com/21560260/trump-pentagon-defense-secretar...

Yes, there are other sides to consider. There always are. Now you decide how reasonable they are--but you cannot skip taking the time to understand the other side.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#370

Post by dang »

slg wrote: post #358
dang wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are rightly downvoting and flagging garden-variety political flamewar posts because they're off topic here. The passionate partisans of every flavor also do their share of downvoting and flagging, of course. But you don't need to invoke that as an explanation when political battle posts are being flagged. This is not a site for political battle. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I will just point out this basically proves my point. The question was what norms changed. I said a candidate won an election and some people won't acknowledge that which goes against previous norms. This is a simple fact confirmed by basically every credible news org in the country, but it is now apparently enough to be considered a "garden-variety political flamewar post".

Your post included many more markers of political flamewar than that. Also, there is no such thing as a "simple fact".

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

Post reply on HN