They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) • Hacker News Board

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#331

Post by prewett » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 8:28 PM UTC

This is a troubling article in its own right, but what was more troubling is the realization I had 3/4 of the way down. At first I was thinking "yes, this is what Trump is doing, albeit incompetently. I feel like this guy, that I'm an alarmist but I can't prove anything." And then when it started talking about opposing opinions being shouted down, I realized that the "Progressives" might actually be doing the same thing, just more competently. It's not okay to disagree about the merits of homosexuality. It's not okay to disagree about racism. It's not okay to disagree that whites, especially males, are privileged and therefore aggressors. "Cancel culture" and all that. This is something that's crept up in the past 10 or 15 years.

What worries me is that both sides are doing similar things.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#332

Post by renewiltord » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 8:31 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #10

bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

Who exactly is rational middle in your view? Who exactly is right wing side and who exactly is left wing side? Is democratic party along with Joe Biden really controlling violent antifa? Is antifa actually killing people and attempting kidnappings? Is democratic party really attacking elections the way president is now? The rational middle will be dwindling as long as they are always referred to in abstract without e…

Having thought about this carefully¹, I have concluded that my position is the rational middle. All other positions are inexplicably extremist while I have carefully cultivated an intelligent rational position. Unusual among Mankind, I have been blessed with the power to apply reason to terrible subjects. It is sad that all the other people are such extremists for if they weren't we could have had such productive discourse. I could've convinced them of how right I am by application of reasoned discussion of evidence. But alas, I stand beset on all sides by irrational fear-mongers, violent identitarians, and wishful communists. Disgusting.

Naturally, any rebuke of my position is evidence of their extremism, for steeped in their emotion they are unable to be rational. I, on the other hand, am wise beyond belief, empowered by the reason that Nature and my own path to self-growth have given me.

¹ To be clear, I always think about things carefully. I only mention this because it is clear that almost everyone else doesn't, as evinced by the fact that they do not agree with me.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#333

Post by triceratops » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 8:37 PM UTC

frenchyatwork wrote: post #157

awb wrote: post #105

> "How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice — ‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certa…

> I think it's safe to fear unchecked power and those who are loyal to people instead of loyal to ideas For all its many failings, I think this is one of the benefits that religion (an particularly the form of religion popular in Europe during the the last 2000 years) can provide. By having a notion of some god, and a cannon, you can have a list of ideas that everyone considers good, and it makes such demagoguery a l…

> By having a notion of some god, and a cannon, you can have a list of ideas that everyone considers good, and it makes such demagoguery a little more difficult.

Where do events such as the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades fit into that idea?

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#334

Post by triceratops » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 8:41 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #162

amirkdv wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuinely curious: what are some historically significant examples of "false positives"? By which I assume you mean a time when people rose to resist something they didn't really have to.

To elaborate on aazaa's comment: think of the labels "patriot" and "terrorist" and think of how frequently they correlate with "winner" and "loser". The Founding Fathers were patriots, because America is now the dominant world superpower. But there are a number of groups that attempted to do to America exactly what America did to the British. Daniel Shay, Tecumseh, Sitting Bull, the entire Confederacy, the Anarchist…

> How does history remember them now?

You've picked a set of figures whose historical legacy spans a very wide spectrum. At one end (largely positive) are Tecumseh and Sitting Bull, and at the other are (largely negative) are Osama and the Confederacy. Shays sits somewhere in the middle, mostly because other than history buffs no one even knows who that is.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#335

Post by throwaway11320 » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 8:41 PM UTC

throwaway23452 wrote: post #179

The context of this being shared is obvious, but I want to point out that both sides of the American divide right now would likely instinctively identify the other (or their presidential candidate) as the Hitler in this scenario. I say this not to argue that one, or both, or neither, has no reason to make that connection. I say this to illustrate that it's easy to look at superficial signifiers - especially when satu…

It's a shame comments like this require throwaway accounts on hacker news.

People refuse to consider the other sides perspective, insisting that they are right without doing the mental exercise to even consider the other side having a shred of truth or valuable thought. There are very smart people on all sides of the political spectrum.

What makes it worse, is if you don't take the time to consider the other side's perspective, YOU are fueling the hate and polarization.

I'd strongly recommend https://www.allsides.com for a relatively quick and easy way to get exposed to both sides.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#336

Post by dang » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 8:43 PM UTC

bmmayer1 wrote: post #329

dang wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please neither start nor perpetuate political flamewars on HN. We don't need fiery arguments about endlessly repeated details that are available everywhere else. We need thoughtful, curious conversation on non-obvious topics of intellectual interest. Political interest may intersect with intellectual interest but the two are not the same, and they become disjoint as passions rise. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsgui…

Hi dang -- I appreciate what you're trying to do, but please understand it was neither my intent to start one or perpetuate a flame war, nor was my comment inflammatory in any reasonable sense of the word. Seems unfair to single me out here, given how perfectly bland my comment was, especially when compared to other comments made in this thread.

I get that it wasn't your intent, but you're underestimating how provocative it was. That's standard for internet comments. Most provocation is unintentional, which why it always feels like other people cause the problem.

There's a sense in which the root comment of a flamewar is responsible for the flamewar whether it was intended or not: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

Still, if you hadn't posted https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25086238, I wouldn't have replied. Note the phrase "nor perpetuate" above! And I certainly didn't single you out:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25086665

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25086711

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25086595

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#337

Post by solarhoma » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 8:50 PM UTC

prewett wrote: post #331

This is a troubling article in its own right, but what was more troubling is the realization I had 3/4 of the way down. At first I was thinking "yes, this is what Trump is doing, albeit incompetently. I feel like this guy, that I'm an alarmist but I can't prove anything." And then when it started talking about opposing opinions being shouted down, I realized that the "Progressives" might actually be doing the same th…

And there you go. When you tell others their thoughts are wrong you yourself become authoritarian.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#338

Post by justin66 » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 8:50 PM UTC

frenchyatwork wrote: post #157

awb wrote: post #105

> "How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice — ‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certa…

> I think it's safe to fear unchecked power and those who are loyal to people instead of loyal to ideas For all its many failings, I think this is one of the benefits that religion (an particularly the form of religion popular in Europe during the the last 2000 years) can provide. By having a notion of some god, and a cannon, you can have a list of ideas that everyone considers good, and it makes such demagoguery a l…

>> By having a notion of some god, and a cannon, you can have a list of ideas that everyone considers good, and it makes such demagoguery a little more difficult.

I'm an agnostic whose beliefs wrt good and evil correspond much more closely to those of many of my Catholic or Jewish neighbors than those of my extended family who are Baptists or Evangelicals or whatever the hell it is they're doing.

I doubt this is unusual at all.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#339

Post by deanCommie » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 8:52 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #81

lisper wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things ar…

Biden also said at least once that he might not accept the result of the election if he lost. (Sorry, don't have a reference handy, but I saw it.) I believe that his point was that he would also have to look at fraud. And he said it much less often than Trump did. Still it was rather scary to have both sides saying it.

> Sorry, don't have a reference handy, but I saw it.

The unfortunate refrain of too many people repeating falsehoods online and in person these days.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#340

Post by drewcoo » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

mmastrac wrote: post #150

panax wrote: post #142

The most chilling part is "But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on th…

Exactly. Consider the erosion of long-standing norms in the west over the last four years and how far society has slipped. These are the first, strong, signs that things are starting to go off the rails.

That is easily perceptible change. Consider instead the last 20 years. The US now has "papers please" air travel, the police are much more highly militarized, we're under constant electronic scrutiny of all kinds, and we the people have even less of a common understanding of the world, making us less likely to band together to defend ourselves.

That is frightening.