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They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

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Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#301

Post by whateveracct »

RestlessMind wrote: post #290
lisper wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things ar…

Left denies basic facts about: 1. Trump's legitimate election in 2016 - see all the hysterical reactions like "Not my president" protests or urging faithless elector to vote for anyone else but trump route or "Russia-gate" (left's Benghazi?) or the impeachment farce. (I don't think I need to provide any citations here). 2. Illegal immigration - left doesn't acknowledge that this is a problem. And then you see left's…

> impeachment farce. (I don't think I need to provide any citations here).

You could just watch the House testimony? Trump clearly tried to use the United States' leverage to get another country's leader to create bad press for the man who he saw as his biggest threat to the re-election.

Imagine if nobody blew the whistle and the Ukrainian president did what Trump wanted. Trump could've beaten Biden off the back of that. Off the back of abuse of power!

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#302

Post by yyyk »

jolux wrote: post #246
yyyk wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Florida 2000 was indeed very different. That said, Gore was hoisted by his own petard and not by SCOTUS. It's important to remember that Gore did not wish to recount the entire state and all the ballots in the same way, but only in areas and ways considered favourable to Gore. If Gore hadn't tried that stunt, the process wouldn't have dragged on until December, and the Court wouldn't have been able to interfere. Even…

Do you have a source for these allegations? It doesn't track my understanding of the Florida recount, and moreover it's pretty indisputable that SCOTUS acted illegitimately, regardless of what the outcome would have been.

See [0] for a SCOTUS-favourable perspective on Gore's original request and how even the Florida court version was tilted. As for recount results, wiki has a decent overview [1].

[0] http://www.floridalawreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/L...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_presidentia...

See especially the NORC results. The wiki entry argues that if the Florida court had continued the proceedings, it may have applied a uniform standard where Gore would have won - but none of the existing orders did that, they used standards where Bush would have won [based on NORC]. Anyway, by Dec. 12 time was running out, the Federal deadline was Dec. 18.

I believe that if Gore had pursued the fair strategy from the beginning than there would have been time enough for the uniform standard recount and no cause for the partial recounts and the appeals that wasted so much time.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#303

Post by gfodor »

chordalkeyboard wrote: post #263
gfodor wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is probably true for armed conflict, but for civil conflicts in liberal societies, I think it's fair to assume that over time things converge to a more moral and just society over time. (So, the "victors" can be presumed legitimately moral.) However, this has an assumption that a society is liberal, and provides the free exchange of ideas, which is something that seems to ebb-and-flow itself.

The free exchange of ideas falls prey to the paradox of tolerance.

Only if you don't understand the paradox.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#304

Post by jessaustin »

mmastrac wrote: post #31
didericis wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t speak for the person you’re asking, but Tulsi Gabbard is representative of what I see as the rational middle.

The only way you can see Tulsi as the "middle" is because the overton window has slammed so far right. In a rational society, Biden and Obama would be considered middle and AOC/Bernie left.

You misrepresent Rep. Tulsi Gabbard. She is no rightist. She has been one of the few voices for pacifism in Congress in the last decade.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#305

Post by whateveracct »

augustt wrote: post #293
RestlessMind wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Left denies basic facts about: 1. Trump's legitimate election in 2016 - see all the hysterical reactions like "Not my president" protests or urging faithless elector to vote for anyone else but trump route or "Russia-gate" (left's Benghazi?) or the impeachment farce. (I don't think I need to provide any citations here). 2. Illegal immigration - left doesn't acknowledge that this is a problem. And then you see left's…

Read the Ukraine transcript and say it wasn't a flagrant abuse of power with a straight face.

The transcript combined with the many House testimonies.

It amazes me that because the Senate didn't convict or even have a trial (for political self-preservation alone), people just think it's a farce.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#306

Post by mturmon »

amirkdv wrote: post #121
awb wrote: post #105

> "How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice — ‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certa…

Genuinely curious: what are some historically significant examples of "false positives"? By which I assume you mean a time when people rose to resist something they didn't really have to.

How about the people who thought UN troops in black helicopters would take over the US? Eg, US Congressman Helen Chenoweth, from Idaho.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_helicopter

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#307

Post by dang »

bmmayer1 wrote: post #265
bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

Looks like I accidentally started a flame war here! Funtimes. My answer to some common replies: 1) "But the [left/right] is much worse": you're sorta making my point. Even if the other "side" may be worse now, if you're honest with yourself, I'm sure you can see where your partisans have crossed some lines, too. And the whole point of this piece is authoritarianism and fascism grows slowly over time, so "We're slight…

Please neither start nor perpetuate political flamewars on HN. We don't need fiery arguments about endlessly repeated details that are available everywhere else. We need thoughtful, curious conversation on non-obvious topics of intellectual interest. Political interest may intersect with intellectual interest but the two are not the same, and they become disjoint as passions rise.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#308

Post by dang »

lisper wrote: post #20
bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things ar…

Please don't take HN threads further into ideological or political flamewar. The last thing we need here is yet another angry, generic argument between left ideology and right ideology. Those are utterly repetitive, and therefore tedious, and therefore off topic on HN.

That's not to say the issues aren't important; of course they are. But this site has a particular scope and repetitive flamewars aren't in it.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#309

Post by dang »

jolux wrote: post #9
bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder…

Please don't take HN threads further into ideological or political flamewar. The last thing we need here is yet another angry, generic argument between left ideology and right ideology. Those are utterly repetitive, and therefore tedious, and therefore off topic on HN.

That's not to say the issues aren't important; of course they are. But this site has a particular scope and repetitive flamewars aren't in it.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Please see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25086595. 40+ comments in a thread like this is beyond excessive.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#310

Post by confidantlake »

bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

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