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So you've made a mistake and it's public
181–190 of 403 posts
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#182I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…
I imagine there's a special extra level of problems that apply when the apology reinforces someone's stereotypical views of the apologizer based on the group they appear to be part of, whether those views are held consciously or unconsciously, which makes especially problematic. Most of those attributes or not readily obvious in an online forum, but some are based on pronoun and/or name (mainly gender and nationality…
It was a homeschooling/parenting list. Those tend to skew female and this one did.
Though the reality is that I have never been on an email list that was mostly female membership that wasn't poisoned by sexism. There is inevitably one or two men who have figured out how to participate in the discussion without the entire group wanting their head on a pike and you can't disagree with these men because a zillion women will jump down your throat and it ends up being seriously ugly (yes, I tend to be the woman daring to disagree with such men and having other women act horribly to me).
A more likely explanation is that when I was younger, before my health went to hell, I was fairly charming and likable. So I tended to be the center of attention and I think some people were jealous.
It was also a situation where (oftentimes) I would read the initial email and give my advice on their problem without first reading any of the replies and then my advice would change the direction of discussion because it was so much better than what had already been said. I tended to stand out and there were some people just hell bent on trying to prove that I "didn't know everything" and "wasn't above making mistakes" and "wasn't always right" and this kind of garbage.
Because I tended to stand out, the discussion on the list would end up revolving around everyone lining up to either be "for" or "against" me/my position and then I would hand everyone their head as the least worst answer because patting people on the head for agreeing with me was only going to deepen such problems.
I've spent a lot of years trying to figure out how to let my comments stand on their own and do what I can to refuse to let it become about me. There is no 100 percent cure for that tendency (of people to make things about the person who said them), but I've learned some best practices.
(Comment has been edited.)
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#183I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…
I think the solution here is to choose values that are not conditional on what people think of you or what you’ve done.
Then, when you apologize, you’re never doing it to seek forgiveness. Apologies are simply an expression of regret that your actions didn’t align with your values.
How other people react doesn’t matter.
E.g. I’m sorry for A. I regret A bc I value B. B is important to me bc C. To better achieve B, I will be avoiding A in the future and striving for D and E instead.
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#184I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…
I really don't get people who try to hold people to things they said years ago. People change, and opinions change.
And the only people you need to apologize to are the people who you actually hurt, not random people on the internet.
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#185> What should I do when I see someone else is making a mistake? > When you see others making mistakes, first help them see their mistakes and deal with them (e.g. by recycling this text, or by independently offering your analysis and answers to Steps 1 and 2 above). > Remember you make mistakes too, and be tolerant of the time it may take people to accept that they have made a mistake. (But you don't need to allow th…
I have trouble handling others’ mistakes if I’ve corrected them before, they acknowledged the mistake, but they keep doing them. What am I supposed to do with people who won’t learn from their mistakes (in the workplace)? I’m directly affected by them as they increase my workload, so I can’t just ignore them.
The problem to be solved is why the person doesn't learn or change when they know about the mistake, not the mistake itself.
You might start by directly asking, "Why do you keep making this mistake?" It might be because they're careless, or lazy, or maybe they really don't believe it's a mistake (they just acknowledged the mistake to get you to go away). Or maybe they just need a little help, such as automated reminders to get them to check for those mistakes.
Sadly, there are people who will not learn from either kindness and teaching, or harshness and harrassment. In the workplace, you can make an appeal to the manager, but perhaps only after discussion with coworker has failed to produce the desired results.
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#186> What should I do when I see someone else is making a mistake? > When you see others making mistakes, first help them see their mistakes and deal with them (e.g. by recycling this text, or by independently offering your analysis and answers to Steps 1 and 2 above). > Remember you make mistakes too, and be tolerant of the time it may take people to accept that they have made a mistake. (But you don't need to allow th…
I have trouble handling others’ mistakes if I’ve corrected them before, they acknowledged the mistake, but they keep doing them. What am I supposed to do with people who won’t learn from their mistakes (in the workplace)? I’m directly affected by them as they increase my workload, so I can’t just ignore them.
Ask them how you can help them not to make the same mistake again. Not knowing the specific situation makes it hard to offer specific advice, but in software there are specific tools (e.g. IDEs, linters, CIs, tests, etc.) that help people avoid known mistakes. Sometimes having better docs or specific checklist (e.g. "your bug must have these fields filled in before we can work on it") helps.
If that doesn't help, ask the manager the same - emphasizing you are not attacking the person but looking for a way to stop wasting time on correcting the same repeating mistake which adds to costs and decreases productivity. That may generate some resentment (so trying to resolve it directly first is prudent) but if you avoid framing it as a personal fault it would usually help.
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#187I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…
To preface, we're talking about people with jackasses-tendencies here. Normal, well-adjusted people don't like to make their colleagues feel bad.
But as you say, it's also been my experience that apology and... "ownership"(?) are two very different things in American (Southern) culture.
"I'm sorry I did X" seems to signal weakness and invite criticism, if people are already so inclined.
"I did X. It wasn't the best approach / it was wrong / etc" seems to be perceived as stronger, while also taking responsibility for the mistake.
My gut says bullies key to subconscious signs of weakness, and the former is interpreted as such. While the latter projects subconscious strength, even while communicating conscious guilt.
We're all just apes in the end.
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#188The number of people in this thread arguing that apologies can only make things worse is shocking. Are these the same people who reject addressing war crimes with truth and reconciliation, and instead advocate "deny everything, make counteraccusations"?
A proper apology—one that (1) acknowledges the specific harm caused, (2) acknowledges responsibility and remorse for specific choices, (3) explains how they hope to make amends specifically to the aggrieved party—seems to me to be self-evidently the only possible way to heal a community.
Doubtless many people have delivered "apologies" that omitted one of those elements, or even all 3 elements ("I apologize if anyone felt offended"), and thereby made things worse for themselves. But to me it is self-evidently corrosive to a community and to a person's ego to adopt a practice of refusing to acknowledge mistakes.
For an example of the good that can come from a proper apology for a serious harm, consider Dan Harmon's apology to Megan Ganz: https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/1/11/16879702/dan-harmon-ap...
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#189I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…
Do you keep a blog? Find your comments interesting.
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#190Earlier quoted context omitted.
It should be noted that you should contact them about their mistake in the most private way possible, then escalating slowly as the need arises. This follows the "praise in public, punish in private" maxim.
Gospel of Matthew, chapter 18: If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat…
If he refuses to listen even to the church, then forgive him anyway.