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They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

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Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#211

Post by jolux »

OminousWeapons wrote: post #207
jolux wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Trying to kick the Republicans while they are down , chastising them them for using legal means to fight the outcome of the election, or engaging in grievance politics just further reinforces the perception that the left isn't operating in good faith. You're getting this backwards. The legal means are not there to fight the outcome of the election, they are there to make sure every vote is counted properly. This is…

> I'm fairly confident that they will not be able to convince a court that there was, but that doesn't make it ok that they are filing lawsuits on no evidence. I agree and so do the courts which is why this problem will likely solve itself if you just let it play out.

I'm not arguing doing anything more than letting it play out and reporting accurately on what's going on. You seem to think we shouldn't be discussing it as such. I think it's important to talk about what they're doing, because it's poisonous to our democracy.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#212

Post by ajvs »

jolux wrote: post #151
ajvs wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Left-wing protests throughout the summer have frequently turned violent, with it being directed at random passersby, police, businesses, etc. I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to by "violent intentions" but that it has happened frequently in the past is a legitimate reason why right-wingers would show up prepared for the fact that violence will likely commence.

You're dodging the question though. Why are right-wingers showing up to a left-wing protest movement in the first place, if they aren't counterprotesting? Wandering around with rifles is not a protest.

Their presence is in itself counterprotest if you're able to figure out they're right-wing in the first place. I'm not sure what type of arbitrary behaviour you're looking for here.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#213

Post by Steltek »

at_a_remove wrote: post #100
jolux wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate? Who isn't living in reality here? This is not a far left position, and it's not the left that is driving FUD about US election integrity.

I recall a scant four years ago when many on the left were suggesting that the electors be faithless electors to get Clinton in office. After all, she won the popular vote, right? "What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate" indeed ?

One could argue that the electoral college (and in the past, Senators elected by state legislatures) was intended to be a circuit breaker or hurdle to prevent grossly unqualified candidates from reaching office. I challenge you to find a candidate that was less qualified and more dangerous than Trump.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#214

Post by jolux »

throwaway568468 wrote: post #144
jolux wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying he shot someone. That was alleged, and he was never arrested or charged. Like I said, some leftists are believers in armed self defense. I am not. But the fact of the matter is we will never know the full details of that case. I condemn bringing weapons to protests as fully as I condemn equating the role of violence on the left and the right in America right now.

Does it also apply for you to terrorists that commit suicide attacks? By definition they will never be arrested nor charged. Would you say that "we will never know" if they did kill people?

This is a red herring and a non-sequitur.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#215

Post by amanaplanacanal »

ajvs wrote: post #35
jolux wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder…

Antifa have committed numerous enough acts of violence to be labeled a domestic terrorist group and instead of plots you have actual congressmen (Steve Scalise) being shot by a leftist. HN is a place for avoiding our biases not doubling down on them.

Anybody can label anybody as a terrorist group. I’m not sure that says anything useful. The shooting does count though, as far as I know.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#216

Post by wrycoder »

jolux wrote: post #141
wrycoder wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The country has voted. The election is still in progress. There are allegations of malfeasance and even fraud that need to be investigated and adjudicated. This has been true in many previous elections. The rule is to count every legal vote and only legal votes. Once this all plays out, and it will in the near future, then we can determine the "legitimate election result", per the Electoral College. Should Biden cont…

>There are allegations of malfeasance and even fraud that need to be investigated and adjudicated. This has been true in many previous elections. The rule is to count every legal vote and only legal votes. There are allegations by enormously unscrupulous people which have as yet been completely debunked by the courts and labeled by government officials as misinformation attempts: https://apnews.com/article/top-offici…

"And if there are legitimate problems to be found, they will be, the coalition declared. Its statement said that all of the states with close results have paper records, which allow for the recounting of each ballot, if necessary, and for “the identification and correction of any mistakes or errors. ... Right now, across the country, election officials are reviewing and double checking the entire election process prior to finalizing the result.”

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#217

Post by jolux »

ajvs wrote: post #212
jolux wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're dodging the question though. Why are right-wingers showing up to a left-wing protest movement in the first place, if they aren't counterprotesting? Wandering around with rifles is not a protest.

Their presence is in itself counterprotest if you're able to figure out they're right-wing in the first place. I'm not sure what type of arbitrary behaviour you're looking for here.

It's intimidating to be walking around with guns drawn. That's what I'm trying to get at.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#218

Post by eli_gottlieb »

jolux wrote: post #9
bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder…

>Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters.

They're not [1][2]?

[1] -- https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/aug/08/wearea...

[2] -- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/29/key-finding...

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#219

Post by YarickR2 »

snarfy wrote: post #86
ajvs wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the last election there was the attempted impeachment and RussiaGate witch hunt which found no evidence that Trump conspired with Russia to influence the election. It's pretty brazen to ignore that ans say the left never disputed the election outcome.

There is no question there was Russian interference in the 2016 election with reams of evidence to back it up. It was then spun that Trump specifically did not conspire. Conspiring does not matter. It is entirely irrelevant to the goal of validating the integrity of the election. If they care so much about fraud they would have continued to investigate all of the irregularities around the 2016 election.

Give us the frigging evidence at last !!!

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#220

Post by setpatchaddress »

bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

"antifa" isn't paramilitary or any other sort of group. It's a contraction of "anti-fascist" and is simply a tenet that many people hold.

"Proud Boys" are an organized domestic terrorist group, not a label for a set of beliefs.

There was real, violent, semi-organized left-wing radicalism in the USA in the 1970's. Not since. It may return! But it hasn't yet.

You might want to be more skeptical of the media you're consuming that led you to believe this. Or the persons you've been talking to.

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