Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

press.uchicago.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 426 posts

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#201

Post by jolux »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #191
jolux wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about in general though, I am talking about this year. And moreover, one senator and one representative cannot be taken as representative of a whole side. One objection is an aberration. A whole party objecting is a political strategy.

That sounds like we are indeed talking across each other, then. I'm not talking about this year.

You were bringing in historical perspective to justify the idea that the left commonly denies basic facts to dispute clear election results. I have argued, and I believe demonstrated, that the context you present does not support the conclusion you argue. This is disagreement, not misunderstanding.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#202

Post by germinalphrase »

aazaa wrote: post #122

Imagine you're living through the events described in the essay. You know exactly where things are heading and that the situation is dire. You're willing to do whatever it takes to prevent the inevitable from playing out. What's your plan and your next move?

Protect yourself, your loved ones, and leave?

It’s hard to fight the tide.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#203

Post by AnimalMuppet »

pontus wrote: post #198
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The left had something similar in 2016, in Bernie Sanders. The differences were that he didn't have the locker room talk (that I know of), and he didn't have the dictatorial tendencies (that I know of). But he was an insurgent from outside the party (he wasn't a Democrat, though he may have joined the party in 2016 for his run). In the same way, Trump wasn't really a Republican. (He did join the party, but somewhat r…

I guess while he was an outsider I'm not sure that he would have proven to be authoritarian in the way Trump is. I'm mostly worried about our democracy and not necessarily so much about policies.

I agree; I specifically said that I had no basis for claiming that he was authoritarian. The rest is quite similar, though - the outside insurgency and the populism. So the playbook is there for it to happen on the left as well as on the right.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#204

Post by danbolt »

peter422 wrote: post #129
pontus wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I broadly agree with you. That being said, I don't think it's fair at this point to equate what's going on on the left to what's going on on the right. They are leagues apart. That's not to say that the same thing couldn't happen on the left or that the people on the left in some way are superior. Quite the opposite. I think the people on the left are just as susceptible to the type of effects happening on the right.…

I don’t think the guy who said Obama wasn’t born in the U.S. was going to have a shot on the Democratic side.

Yeah, I was a little surprised at the assumption that Trump would be feasible in a Democratic Primary. Or, a larger segment of the party wanted to support people like Sanders and Warren for a specific ideological reasons. Plus, a lot of Democrats felt Biden’s views and past behaviour made him unsuitable to be president. It’s hard to imagine those same factions in the party nominating Trump.

I’m not an American though, so I may be missing some context.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#205

Post by pydry »

_iyig wrote: post #88
pydry wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy who murdered the teenager had nothing to do with the CHAZ security team. He snuck in specifically to murder the other kid. I have a feeling you know this.

You are probably referring to a separate shooting death in CHOP, that of Lorenzo Anderson. I am referring to the murder of Antonio Mays Jr. by antifa security. This murder was filmed from multiple angles and recordings are widely available. Short clips from several of the vantage points (skip to roughly 1:40 - warning, disturbing): https://youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=_K0tXOBPMHA

Not really sure what I saw on that video. It's a mess.

The last I heard Antonio Mays murder was an active investigation with no arrests made: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/everybody-down-wha...

If it's an open and shut case and the shooter is clearly identifiable why is that? Is the Seattle Police in on this conspiracy?

I of course assumed you meant the other kid because the murderer was actually, yknow, detained and charged so their identity is obviously known.

Once again, I'm sure you actually know all of this.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#206

Post by amanaplanacanal »

anonunivgrad wrote: post #125
jolux wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. Why would right-wingers show up to a left-wing protest with violent intentions? There's no legitimate reason, but I apologize for extrapolating from their actions.

Is it a surprise that armed people would show up to oppose the trashing of their cities?

I can imagine arming myself if I felt my neighbors or myself were in danger, but the idea of arming myself and my friends to drive to some other neighborhood or city to “protect” them is beyond anything that makes sense to me.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#207

Post by OminousWeapons »

jolux wrote: post #187
OminousWeapons wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree it was a secure election. What I mean to say is that this is a perception issue. There is a belief along many on the right that elements of the civil service, the media, and the educated classes are strongly biased against Donald Trump and would like to undermine him. To be honest, they are probably right (although I would argue that the bias is warranted given Trump's abysmal job performance). They therefore…

> Trying to kick the Republicans while they are down , chastising them them for using legal means to fight the outcome of the election, or engaging in grievance politics just further reinforces the perception that the left isn't operating in good faith. You're getting this backwards. The legal means are not there to fight the outcome of the election, they are there to make sure every vote is counted properly. This is…

> I'm fairly confident that they will not be able to convince a court that there was, but that doesn't make it ok that they are filing lawsuits on no evidence.

I agree and so do the courts which is why this problem will likely solve itself if you just let it play out.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#208

Post by ip26 »

panax wrote: post #142

The most chilling part is "But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on th…

If 2016-2020 gave us a window into what it's like, I would say your last bit isn't quite right:

Authoritarianism rises gradually and relies on people looking away from it, unable to confront inconvenient truths.

I feel like many people paid a lot of attention, and confronted truths, and spoke out about it. Yet, Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not risk being shot in the streets at Step B, why should you finally take arms & march at Step C? And so on to Step D.

(Unless in your statement, "relies on people looking away..." refers to a subset of people, not the nation as a whole)

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#209

Post by jolux »

OminousWeapons wrote: post #192
jolux wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's wrong. Frivolous lawsuits made with the intent to overturn a legitimate election result may be legal, but they're incredibly dangerous for the health of our democracy.

The probability of a frivolous lawsuit succeeding in such a way that it could overturn the results is literally zero. Frivolous suits are not legal, the courts have identified and nullified all frivolous lawsuit attempts so far, and they have signaled that they will not be tolerated. If Trump wants to bring frivolous suits then it only makes him look less legitimate in the eyes of everyone and bolsters the case for f…

So to clarify, you're agreeing that the GOP is trying to overturn a solid election result, but you think the left poses a greater danger to democracy, because they are talking about what the GOP is doing? If we're sitting next to each other reading books and you start yelling about how I just hit you and stole your wallet, I'm not in fact required to hear you out on that if I did not just hit you and steal your wallet.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#210

Post by mrguyorama »

drilldrive wrote: post #172
mmastrac wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Consider the erosion of long-standing norms in the west over the last four years and how far society has slipped. These are the first, strong, signs that things are starting to go off the rails.

Last year has had a greater loss of norms of Western thought than we have seen since the dawn of the modern world in almost every Western country. Say what you want about the virus response, but powers that be don't give up newly founded power after they seized it once (the lockdowns never will truly end).

Jesus christ man, responding to a national health crisis in exactly the same way we did 100 years ago does not make us and authoritarian government. What's next, "the food rationing so our troops can keep fighting the actual nazis make us just as bad as them"?
Post reply on HN