They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) • Hacker News Board

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#101

Post by lisper » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #81

lisper wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things ar…

Biden also said at least once that he might not accept the result of the election if he lost. (Sorry, don't have a reference handy, but I saw it.) I believe that his point was that he would also have to look at fraud. And he said it much less often than Trump did. Still it was rather scary to have both sides saying it.

> Sorry, don't have a reference handy

Res ipsa loquitur.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#102

Post by jascii » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

_iyig wrote: post #38

jolux wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder…

How quickly we forget the heavily-armed antifa militia that occupied 3 city blocks in downtown Seattle, whose assault rifle-wielding “security team” assaulted journalists, intimidated residents, and murdered an unarmed black teenager. Residents and businesses owners are currently suing the city for abandoning the neighborhood’s police station, providing porta-potties to the armed occupiers, and ceding control of this…

Your links do not support your statement. While the wikipedia article mentions some armed presence, it clearly puts that as a response to outside right-wing violence. No mention of is made of an "rifle-wielding “security team” assaulted journalists, intimidated residents, and murdered an unarmed black teenager" in either article. There certainly have been some unfortunate shooting deaths in the area at the time, but not much is known about either the perpetrators or their motivation.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#103

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

pontus wrote: post #48

bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

I broadly agree with you. That being said, I don't think it's fair at this point to equate what's going on on the left to what's going on on the right. They are leagues apart. That's not to say that the same thing couldn't happen on the left or that the people on the left in some way are superior. Quite the opposite. I think the people on the left are just as susceptible to the type of effects happening on the right.…

The left had something similar in 2016, in Bernie Sanders. The differences were that he didn't have the locker room talk (that I know of), and he didn't have the dictatorial tendencies (that I know of). But he was an insurgent from outside the party (he wasn't a Democrat, though he may have joined the party in 2016 for his run). In the same way, Trump wasn't really a Republican. (He did join the party, but somewhat recently.) Yes, I realize that this is degenerating into No True Scotsman, but both were outsiders who tried to hijack the parties. Trump succeeded, Bernie failed because the Democratic Party manipulated things and the Republican Party let things happen.

The groundwork has been laid, on both sides. And the Democrats got raked over the coals for tilting the scales against Bernie, so they might not do it next time.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#104

Post by jolux » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

solarhoma wrote: post #91

sfg wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it.

It’s amazing. The top reply to his post does just this.

I care more about what is true than I care about trying to provide false balance between unequal positions. If you see me as missing the message, so be it. A request to treat "both sides" of this situation as equals is a request to ignore reality, which I refuse to do.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#105

Post by awb » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

> "How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice — ‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have. And everyone counts on that might.

The problem is the road to hell and heaven are both paved with good intentions.

History is littered with so many warnings of false positives and false negatives, it's hard to be know what to resist and what to accept.

But power corrupts absolutely and I think it's safe to fear unchecked power and those who are loyal to people instead of loyal to ideas. Ideas don't change when they gain or lose power, but people always do.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#106

Post by NicoJuicy » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #59

ajvs wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing in that article suggesting a false flag. At most Hina Shamsi suggests that leftist actions are being judged more harshly.

Fair enough. Why would right-wingers show up to a left-wing protest with violent intentions? There's no legitimate reason, but I apologize for extrapolating from their actions.

Escalating the situation and change public perception to "hurt the left" seems what I interpret from the situation.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#107

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:18 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #49

cal5k wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose you missed the 3-year period where Trump was supposedly a Russian agent who stole the election? That's just the tenor of American politics right now in general.

When the left complained that Trump became president while several million more people wanted his opponent to win, characterizing that as 'stealing the election' does not seem particularly unfair. And given the oddly pervasive connections between Trump's family and Russia, I can't really fault people for thinking there might very well be a connection. An awful lot of smoke, there is.

There were a set of rules. According to the rules, he won. That's not stealing the election, that's winning by the rules. That's like saying that one team "stole" a baseball game because they had fewer hits than the other team. Yeah, but they had more runs, and that's the rules of the game.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#108

Post by SideburnsOfDoom » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:18 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #81

lisper wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things ar…

Biden also said at least once that he might not accept the result of the election if he lost. (Sorry, don't have a reference handy, but I saw it.) I believe that his point was that he would also have to look at fraud. And he said it much less often than Trump did. Still it was rather scary to have both sides saying it.

I believe that what you're thinking of was that Biden was counseled not to concede early (1)

Which is not the same thing. And given the way it turned out with late-counted postal votes, quite wise.

1) https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/hillary-clint...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-clinton-idUS...

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#109

Post by rubiquity » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:18 PM UTC

bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

This is a terrible opinion dressed up in nice writing and this approach is usually used as a tactic by far right conspiracy theorists to recruit people in doubt to their side. The left/liberal/progressive side is not nearly as offensive, manipulative, or fascist as the right/conservatives even in the most extreme cases, and saying so is harmful.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#110

Post by throwaway568468 » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 5:19 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #42

stickyricky wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. In Portland, an anti-fascist protestor shot a man (rightly or wrongly). Anti-fascists can and do show up with weapons. It is not a false equivalence to say so.

That man never got a trial, he was killed extrajudicially: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/us/michael-reinoehl-antif... .

The New York Times editorial line is to side with killers and terrorists if it can be used to criticize the police or the state. They recently titled their article about a teacher being decapitated by an islamic terrorist near Paris "French Police Shoot and Kill Man After a Fatal Knife Attack on the Street"...

0: https://web.archive.org/web/20201016193107/https://www.nytim...