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They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

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Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#61

Post by cure »

mmastrac wrote: post #31
didericis wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t speak for the person you’re asking, but Tulsi Gabbard is representative of what I see as the rational middle.

The only way you can see Tulsi as the "middle" is because the overton window has slammed so far right. In a rational society, Biden and Obama would be considered middle and AOC/Bernie left.

Yeah. Compared to the rest of the world, the entire left half of the political spectrum is more or less missing in the US.

The democrats are a center right party. The republicans are at this point, a far right party. It has been a deliberate strategy of the far right to paint the center as "socialism" (which a lot of Americans seem to mistake for communism...), because it makes their ideology seem less extreme. A lot of Americans have fallen for that nonsense, unfortunately. Definitions and framing and perspective matters a lot.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#62

Post by mistrial9 »

jolux wrote: post #9
bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder…

I believe there is a mentally-ill man down the hall that thinks he is Antifa, and definitely plans violence all the time, but he is too weak and unstable to do it in reality.. perhaps a powerful image for his weak and unstable mind to fixate on.. does this equate to a real threat? hard to say, he lives largely in a fantasy world and has few contacts with people..

Its no secret that the mentally ill, badly damaged and socially disadvantaged have historially flocked to extreme campaigns -> on either side Peace as espoused by various religions, becomes a powerful antidote as a social message -- I support that messege, personally

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#63

Post by glitcher »

commandlinefan wrote: post #40
lisper wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things ar…

> does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections You may not be old enough to remember, but Al Gore (democrat) did _exactly_ this 20 years ago.

It's quite the revisionist stretch to claim "exactly". There were many very different circumstances.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#64

Post by lisper »

commandlinefan wrote: post #40
lisper wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things ar…

> does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections You may not be old enough to remember, but Al Gore (democrat) did _exactly_ this 20 years ago.

You left out an important piece of context:

"does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear"

In 2000 the results were not clear. This year they are.

Furthermore, once the Supreme Court shut down the Florida recount, effectively handing the White House to George Bush (on very questionable legal grounds [1]), Al Gore conceded.

[1] https://www.yalelawjournal.org/forum/please-dona8217t-cite-t...

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#65

Post by jolux »

mistrial9 wrote: post #62
jolux wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder…

I believe there is a mentally-ill man down the hall that thinks he is Antifa, and definitely plans violence all the time, but he is too weak and unstable to do it in reality.. perhaps a powerful image for his weak and unstable mind to fixate on.. does this equate to a real threat? hard to say, he lives largely in a fantasy world and has few contacts with people.. Its no secret that the mentally ill, badly damaged and…

It's not primarily mentally ill people who call themselves antifascists or Proud Boys though, and believing that is going to severely hamper your analysis of them.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#66

Post by mmastrac »

cure wrote: post #61
mmastrac wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way you can see Tulsi as the "middle" is because the overton window has slammed so far right. In a rational society, Biden and Obama would be considered middle and AOC/Bernie left.

Yeah. Compared to the rest of the world, the entire left half of the political spectrum is more or less missing in the US. The democrats are a center right party. The republicans are at this point, a far right party. It has been a deliberate strategy of the far right to paint the center as "socialism" (which a lot of Americans seem to mistake for communism...), because it makes their ideology seem less extreme. A lot…

Honestly, socialism should be re-branded in the US as "Canadianism" or "Scandanavianism" to break free of that branding problem.

Americans aren't against socialized medicine or safety nets, just the "socialism" boogieman.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#67

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

jvanderbot wrote: post #16
jolux wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder…

It's not necessarily the actions, but the perceived intent by "the other side" that is important. Events become provocation draws provocation draws backlash, etc etc. I'm a fairly liberal person, but it doesn't take an inhuman amount of mental gymnastics to look at riots, anti-police sentiment, etc, and see a coordinated hostile agenda. I am lucky that I get to talk to both hardcore right and hardcore left people reg…

> It's not necessarily the actions, but the perceived intent by "the other side" that is important.

We should regard "perceived intent by the other side" as most important, and there's no way that dishonest actors could weaponise that? No risk of concern trolling, double standards or phoney outrage?

Are you not paying any attention at all to modern politics?

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#68

Post by lisper »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #54
lisper wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things ar…

You're missing substantial historical perspective here. In both 2000 and 2004 - the last two Republican presidential victories that are old enough to talk about without inflaming modern political tensions - Congressional representatives on the left attempted to block the counting of electoral college votes from a crucial swing state. I don't mean to defend these kinds of challenges, I think they're dumb, but they're…

> Congressional representatives on the left attempted to block the counting of electoral college votes from a crucial swing state

Reference?

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#69

Post by jhayward »

ajvs wrote: post #58
lisper wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but there is no moral equivalence in the U.S. between the left and the right. It's certainly true that neither side is squeaky clean, but the left does not deny basic facts, and in particular, it does not attempt to dispute the outcomes of elections when the results are clear (and indeed has in the past thrown in the towel even when the results were not clear). I could go on and on, but those two things ar…

After the last election there was the attempted impeachment and RussiaGate witch hunt which found no evidence that Trump conspired with Russia to influence the election. It's pretty brazen to ignore that ans say the left never disputed the election outcome.

> which found no evidence that Trump conspired with Russia to influence the election

This is a straight-up lie. Mueller said explicitly they found evidence, but left it to Congress to pursue prosecution.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#70

Post by AnimalMuppet »

stickyricky wrote: post #33
jolux wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder…

> showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. In Portland, an anti-fascist protestor shot a man (rightly or wrongly). Anti-fascists can and do show up with weapons. It is not a false equivalence to say so.

And even when they don't show up with guns, they show up with molotov cocktails and water bottles filled with cement (and urine). Those aren't guns, but they aren't Girl Scout cookies, either.
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