Your Computer Isn't Yours • Hacker News Board

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#561

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

emptysongglass wrote: post #219

zanny wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good thing said hacker culture spent 15 years buying inflated laptops and desktops from them ultimately for convenience to give them the market presence to do this in the first place. Its the same thing with Windows. People will preach all day that they won't make any personal sacrifices to try to avoid feeding literal cancers that are eating the software industry and are shocked when said all consuming voids take aw…

What's worse is the number of other posts with the top comments being vociferous defenses of these companies as if they needed these people to defend them or cared one iota for their welfare. It feels like it's Stockholm Syndrome on a mass scale. I worry for Gen Z because they're tiny-mobile-device native. And the only usable tiny mobile devices are walled gardens. They scream outrage when they're not allowed their t…

[deleted]

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#562

Post by jjice » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

This makes me very happy to have gone filled time Linux in the past year. I really want Linux to succeed on the desktop, and I think one very important step is to be able to get all the software (or clones) that people use running on Linux.

So far, LibreOffice covers the majority of cases for MS Office and the average person can get by. Firefox and Chrome are covered, video players are covered, and honestly, I don't know what the average non-technical user uses besides those. Getting Adobe products to really work well would also be a huge win.

I think the Linux desktop is mostly ready, there just needs to be a need for it at this point. Hopefully this is part of that need.

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#563

Post by diab0lic » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 3:14 PM UTC

dingaling wrote: post #225

rsanheim wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pointed out a core problem here, and a common blindspot with the HN crowd: > continuing to use Apple/Google/Microsoft That is probably 98%+ of devices that most typical people use for everyday computing, across phone, laptop, and desktop. Whether it is an android device, an iPhone, a Dell laptop or a new M1 macbook you are beholden to a corporation that doesn't care about privacy. I would argue that Apple cares a…

> Whether it is an android device, an iPhone, a Dell laptop or a new M1 macbook you are beholden to a corporation that doesn't care about privacy. Yet Dell and Lenovo offer computers with Linux pre-installed, but so many technical people ignore them because Apple is shiny and fast. If this trend continues then Linux and other open source OS will eventually exist only as a virtualized guest inside a locked-down propri…

> Yet Dell and Lenovo offer computers with Linux pre-installed, but so many technical people ignore them because Apple is shiny and fast.

I got a Lenovo last year with Ubuntu preinstalled. It was he "blessed hardware". Wifi didn't work after wake / sleep and my connection via usb-c to my monitor was unusable. I switched back to a mac because I wanted to work, not fix my tools.

These aren't one off anecdotes, there are dozens of people in this thread with the same story slightly different. This isn't people going to Apple because it is shiny, it's going to Apple because managing hardware isn't their job.

Either verbally address that meaningfully or drop the condescending attitude.

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#564

Post by zepto » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

ubercow13 wrote: post #474

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet rather than take at their word that Linux is unsuitable for their use case or seek to remedy those problems, people insist that it must be because of one or more of the reasons I listed above. Alternatively, they attempt to change the user's use case to one that fits Linux better. It's extremely tiring to watch this happen for as long as I have been watching it happen.

They didn't say Linux is unsuitable for a particular use case or give any meaningful criticism or definition of a use case, they just said that it 'just doesn't work'. Is it any wonder people call out that tripe.

Are you actually seriously of the belief that Linux ‘just works’ for most use cases or people, and there is a small minority for whom it doesn’t?

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#565

Post by cutler » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 3:16 PM UTC

pdkl95 wrote: post #467

GuB-42 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gen Z can get real general-purpose computers with a development environment for cheap. The new Raspberry Pi 400 is a modern take on home computers like the C64, but 15 times cheaper. Pi 400 full kit: $100, C64: $595 (1982) / $1576 (inflation adjusted for 2019). The computers are not just getting cheaper, educative material is easier than ever to find. Because modern computers are much more complex and do much more th…

> The new Raspberry Pi 400 Learning about the Raspberry Pi is nice, but that doesn't help preserve the institutional knowledge needed to build system/low-level features in a modern OS. I'm not talking about teaching kids to program; I'm concerned about preserving in the future the knowledge of how to create all of the complex tech we use today. Many civilizations throughout history collapsed after they lost the techn…

It's also a fait accompli in education where Python reigns supreme as the primary teaching language.

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#566

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 3:17 PM UTC

II2II wrote: post #553

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Non-tech people don't want (or don't know how) to "setup". The most user-friendly setup won't ever beat "no setup" (e.g., macOS). I don't like this line of thinking because it is condescending. More importantly though, there are plenty of competent technical users like myself that would love to be using an open operating system but are fed up with dealing with the systemic problems Linux Desktop has that its develo…

I'm going to let you in on a secret: most of the people who advocate a particular operating system are pretending that systematic problems don't exist. Strictly speaking, Windows is a usability nightmare. Most people don't notice simply because most people learn and use a tiny subset what is there. Beyond that, there is an entire industry to support Windows (which is part of the reason why people like it). Apple isn'…

I don't disagree, Windows especially has been getting a lot worse as it embraces modern development and the users-are-cattle mindset that comes with it.

My problem isn't so much that there are tradeoffs, or even that those tradeoffs are not ones I want to make, it's that there are people out there who seem to insist that Linux Desktop is the one and only proper choice and everyone who doesn't choose it is either stupid or misinformed. If Linux Desktop people were more willing to listen to why people don't use it and take criticism to heart instead of as some kind of personal attack, it might have evolved into something more people would actually want to use.

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#567

Post by GuB-42 » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 3:18 PM UTC

pdkl95 wrote: post #467

GuB-42 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gen Z can get real general-purpose computers with a development environment for cheap. The new Raspberry Pi 400 is a modern take on home computers like the C64, but 15 times cheaper. Pi 400 full kit: $100, C64: $595 (1982) / $1576 (inflation adjusted for 2019). The computers are not just getting cheaper, educative material is easier than ever to find. Because modern computers are much more complex and do much more th…

> The new Raspberry Pi 400 Learning about the Raspberry Pi is nice, but that doesn't help preserve the institutional knowledge needed to build system/low-level features in a modern OS. I'm not talking about teaching kids to program; I'm concerned about preserving in the future the knowledge of how to create all of the complex tech we use today. Many civilizations throughout history collapsed after they lost the techn…

The problem with low level programming is just the general trend of specialization.

The modern computer is the pinnacle of human civilization, a thing so complex that it requires thousands of people to fully understand how it works. Low level programming is just a small link in the chain of complexity. From mining the materials, to producing silicon of incredible purity, to designing circuits at quantum scale, to CPU design and finally the guy who places the frame that will display cat videos. So if you argue that no one knows how to program the bare metal (that is not that bare anymore), one can argue that the knowledge of how to make logic gates from transistors or the metallurgy of copper traces is getting lost.

Maybe less people will know how to program on the bare metal. But think about it, it has been thousands of years since most people are unable to hunt and gather. This is a great deal more worrisome than not knowing how to program computers, and yet, human civilization have been thriving.

The important thing is that it is still accessible, and it is.

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#568

Post by zepto » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 3:19 PM UTC

zeveb wrote: post #557

arcticbull wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every company I've worked at for the last 10 years has developed exclusively on macOS. Linux is fine, but it doesn't just work, and it needs to in order to gain a foothold not just in the developer community but with the general public -- that's the lesson Android has taught us. Until it does it will not budge the numbers. It just won't. The real apologism here comes from the Linux community, who believes that by vir…

> Every company I've worked at for the last 10 years has developed exclusively on macOS. Counter-anecdote: I have had a Linux computer on my desktop for over the last twenty years, have used Linux primarily for maybe the last eleven, and exclusively for the last eight. I do not get the near-religious love for Apple products. Pre-OS X, they really were wonderful, best in class without a doubt. I kinda get the attracti…

You can’t control your destiny when it’s based on millions of lines of other people’s code, billion transistor hardware designs that you have never seen, fabricated by distant mega factories using closely guarded secret processes.

You may want some idea of controlling your own destiny, but it’s a mirage.

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#569

Post by cutler » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 3:21 PM UTC

It won't be long before logging into the root account on your Mac is flagged as suspicious.

Re: Your Computer Isn't Yours

#570

Post by jmull » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 3:21 PM UTC

jeroenhd wrote: post #461

jmull wrote: post #396

There’s a rather strong counter to this is: I, and the vast majority of computer users, don’t want to manage every nitty-gritty detail of the security and privacy of my computer. I have better things to do. In fact, doing it fully competently is more than a full time job. So farming this out to a third-party is a necessity, for me and many, many others. Of course, it’s not perfect. How much can I trust the third part…

While I disagree that this is a strong counter, it does explain how this has happened. People are lazy. They want their computer to show them pictures on Facebook, funny videos online and run some numbers for them. People don't want to care about stuff like privacy, because thinking gets in the way of fun and ease. Malware has already bypassed Apple's signature mechanism and has been vetted to run by Apple as a resul…

> lazy

It's not laziness. I want Apple to take responsibility for privacy and security mechanisms in the OS. I want them to be the experts on this. That's part of what I'm paying them for.

> The security and trust argument only works if Apple's security mechanisms work.

If a security mechanism isn't 100% effective that doesn't mean it doesn't have substantial value. Black and white thinking isn't a useful way to evaluate security (or privacy) mechanisms.

> Apple is branding third party code as dangerous and untrustworthy

I think the design of the code signing warning is good: If someone is unsophisticated enough to be frightened by that warning, they probably should be.