Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

arstechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 151 posts

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#121

Post by 8note »

pwinnski wrote: post #49
stale2002 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where you come down on it should be based on the law. The comment that you responded to included facts that would support the idea that Apple's behavior is against the current law. When they said that " said marketplace constitutes 50% of the consumer market" This is a reason as for why Apple is breaking the law. It is an argument that Apple has significant market power, and is engaging in anti-competitive actions,…

What courts will need to decide is what constitutes a "market." The arguments against Apple all seem to hinge on the market being "people who own iOS devices," while the argument in favor of Apple all seem to hinge on the market being "people who own a smartphone." In one of those, Apple is a monopolist. In the other, Apple isn't even the biggest company.

Shouldn't we be caring about smart phone app stores though?

From elsewhere in the thread, Apple's app store revenue is 3x Google's and they both charge about the same in fees.

The number of phones or iOS users seems irrelevant to the sales that go through the app store, and that apple is using its position as the app store owner to force app developers to use other apple products like Apple pay

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#122

Post by 8note »

stale2002 wrote: post #95
pwinnski wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What courts will need to decide is what constitutes a "market." The arguments against Apple all seem to hinge on the market being "people who own iOS devices," while the argument in favor of Apple all seem to hinge on the market being "people who own a smartphone." In one of those, Apple is a monopolist. In the other, Apple isn't even the biggest company.

> In the other, Apple isn't even the biggest company. Actually Apple would be the biggest company, in the market of people who have smartphones in the US. They just recently have a bit over 50% of that market. Also, Apple does not need to be a literal, singular company for its actions to be illegal. Instead, it only needs to have significant market power. It doesn't even need to have a majority of the market. > the a…

Specifically for Epic's case, thing that run video games makes sense. I don't think epic has standing to argue something more generic?

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#123

Post by Retric »

8note wrote: post #117
Retric wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom and computer security are in fundamental opposition. It’s the same basic question as GC vs manual memory management. The only way to offer safety on a platform is to secure that platform. If Apple disables the API’s which lets apps access users contacts then they can be sure 3rd party iOS stores don’t compromise user’s privacy. If they allow API access and don’t vet stores then guess what that directly means…

Shouldn't the user get to decide whether an app gets access to the contacts API? I should not have to trust that apple is right in saying whether I want an app to have that access.

Microsoft went down that path with Windows Vista, users want very high level permissions, which thus end up being all or nothing.

App stores on the other hand can actually differentiate between an app that only accesses contacts locally, and one that uploads that information etc. That’s not to say Apple actually does this diligently, but it’s at least possible.

Really it’s a question of deceptive apps. Suppose someone makes a AI based photo manipulation app which reasonably asks for permissions to your photos. And then quietly does a facial recognition search or just tried to find and uploaded nude photos without notifying users. You can catch that crap with human reviewers not so much permissions and automated systems.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#124

Post by bosswipe »

freeone3000 wrote: post #92
bosswipe wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you wanted the latter you will find more and more that it doesn't exist as the duopoly tightens their grip on the market.

You'd buy an android phone. Android phones remain general purpose computers - you can write software that runs on the device, using nothing but the device (and a tool like AIDE, which is on the Play store, and a website you can install it from).

Android has been slowly locking things up. As just one example, checkout the top comment on this thread about an Android terminal app. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24979258

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#125

Post by Fnoord »

FDSGSG wrote: post #106
heavyset_go wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Software developers also don't have much choice. There are two platforms that control all the market share. They have to accept the rules given to them or leave the industry (one they helped create). To put this in perspective consider these stats. In the US, iOS has 52.4% of the mobile OS market[1], and Android has 47%. In the US, Apple's App Store is responsible for the majority of mobile app sales[2], and has 3…

Given how much higher the iOS app sales are, it seems like Apple is providing very significant value for that 30% cut of theirs

Correlation does not imply causation. If you consider Epic, they take only what was it, 18% of the sale. But they're not allowed to compete on Apple's platform...

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#127

Post by zigzag312 »

8note wrote: post #119
zigzag312 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would happen if game consoles would need to open up? Price of consoles would go up and price of games would come down. Net result for the consumer wouldn't be that much different. Of course, the whole dynamics of game consoles business would change much more than this simplified example, but all in all it probably wouldn't be worse, just different. However, there isn't just an option to completely eliminate wall…

I don't think the prices for games would change much. Doing higher and higher resolutions makes the art work hard and harder, and the tool updates arent making a big difference

If we take away the whole 30% store fees, the dev's revenues jump by ~43%. For example, instead of earning $100m, same developer would earn $143m. With 30% fees, if a game developer earns 100m revenue, store owner gets 43m.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#128

Post by mhh__ »

medium_burrito wrote: post #21
jaywalk wrote: post #3

While I admire the creativity of Apple's legal team to attempt to frame this as theft, I'm glad it was dismissed outright because it's beyond absurd.

There should be a Nobel Prize for lawyers- awarded for the most ridiculous tortured or absurd legal arguments made with a straight face - maybe name it the Cochran prize in honor of the Chewbacca defense.

IANAL but isn't this prize (in the extreme) called disbarment?

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#129

Post by mhh__ »

NikolaeVarius wrote: post #36
medium_burrito wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be a Nobel Prize for lawyers- awarded for the most ridiculous tortured or absurd legal arguments made with a straight face - maybe name it the Cochran prize in honor of the Chewbacca defense.

I nominate some of these Judges presiding over the election ballot lawsuits. Some amazing drypan court humor.

The judges!?

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#130

Post by NeutronStar »

d1zzy wrote: post #107
stale2002 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the other, Apple isn't even the biggest company. Actually Apple would be the biggest company, in the market of people who have smartphones in the US. They just recently have a bit over 50% of that market. Also, Apple does not need to be a literal, singular company for its actions to be illegal. Instead, it only needs to have significant market power. It doesn't even need to have a majority of the market. > the a…

> Actually Apple would be the biggest company, in the market of people who have smartphones in the US. They just recently have a bit over 50% of that market. Is Epic requiring Apple to only open their stores in the US?

Does American law apply in Europe?
Post reply on HN