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Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

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Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#101

Post by zigzag312 »

Qwertious wrote: post #96
mlindner wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software is software. What it does isn't the point here. If Apple's use of the Apple store is illegal, so are all the game consoles and they'll be forced to allow people to run any apps they want on them and have competitor app stores.

Sidestepping the whole apple/freedom/consistency argument, are consoles actually good for consumers? Consoles are fundamentally locked down, as the platform-holder (Nintendo/Microsoft/Sony) sell the console at a loss to drop the market price (impossible for commodity hardware that can be used for other purposes), then recoup their money by taking a fee from every copy of every game sold for their console. This used t…

+1 this. Just because we are used to specific business model with gaming consoles, it doesn't mean that it's the only one available or even that it is the best one.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#102

Post by anko »

smileybarry wrote: post #76
thehappypm wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might not seem fair as a developer, but as an iPhone user, I don't have any problem with all my apps coming from one trusted store. Just compare it to Windows. Apps can still be downloaded in several inconsistent ways, and it's hard to trust applications you download arbitrarily.

Except on Windows, you can establish that trust level with stores as you go along, instead of having just one store. For example, I trust Steam, GOG, Epic's store (though I don't use Epic's because I don't want to fragment my library), and a whole assortment of developers specifically. Also, it's not 2007 anymore, if you trust a developer you can almost always guarantee the app came from the trusted source through co…

I think you're missing the point.

There is no problem with multiple stores existing as a model. In fact, on android you can have that. If you like multiple stores, and you want the hassle of using reputation services to manage which things you trust, that's fine. Nobody is saying that you can't.

But by going against Apple's store as part of the platform model, you want to stop people from having a simpler option.

They are deciding that simpler option when they buy into the platform. My mum HATES PCs but loves her iPad because she doesn't have to deal with antivirus updates or downloading dodgy software. She doesn't have to understand multiple stores.

With a multi store model, there is an incentive for competition on store pricing. How do you compete on pricing alone with other stores? You reduce the quality of your review process. It's the only way to compete on cost. And that's what forcing multiple stores does.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#103

Post by chii »

nickff wrote: post #66
rbecker wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Walled gardens are safer, and usually have some implicit or explicit quality guarantee (like the Nintendo seal of quality). And consumers who want to limit themselves to the safety of Apple's app store are free to do so. But Apple goes a step beyond this, and prevents consumers who don't want to be locked-in this way, from using "unauthorized" stores or apps. It's false to claim that the only way to offer safety is…

>"It's false to claim that the only way to offer safety is to take away user freedom." Well, I didn't claim it was the only way, but it does seem like the simplest and possibly the safest way.

and also conveniently benefits apple financially and monopolistically.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#104

Post by rbecker »

Retric wrote: post #97
rbecker wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Freedom and computer security are in fundamental opposition. Only if you interpret "freedom" as "freedom for apps" instead of "freedom for the user". None of what you said precludes the user (I won't say "owner") being able to override Apple, or take Apple's place in deciding what their device may do. In your mind, is a platform only "secure" when ultimate control is with the manufacturer, and not the user? How muc…

> ultimate control is with the manufacture, and not the user. There are a host of ways of describing computer security, but in my mind the most fundamental idea is minimizing the amount of surprises a user faces. A brick might not be a useful stake knife, but it’s secure. Anyone can want more features, but features aren’t security. If someone goes to a knitting blog they don’t expect it to have access to their exact…

> the most fundamental idea is minimizing the amount of surprises a user faces

I wouldn't call being given the master key to my own computer "surprising".

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#105

Post by Osiris »

cassteri wrote: post #45
Osiris wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification. the dictionary definition of the word analogy does not include those stipulations that you stated. Any explanation that compares two things meets the definition of analogy. I think you're being pedantic. You can disagree with the comparison, but that doesn't mean it can't be called an analogy.

My parent comment states the analogy is useless, not that it can’t be called an analogy. It’s an analogy, just not a logically coherent one.

I must have misread or misunderstood the comment before responding. I apologize.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#106

Post by FDSGSG »

heavyset_go wrote: post #55
zigzag312 wrote: post #41

I hope Epic succeeds. Apple has managed to create a virtual ecosystem and they have absolute control over it. Yes, they did it by creating a great product at the right time (at the rise of much improved telecommunications technology). With a combination of HW, OS and digital store they created more than just a product, they have created a platform. Based on that platform, with a big contribution from third party deve…

> Software developers also don't have much choice. There are two platforms that control all the market share. They have to accept the rules given to them or leave the industry (one they helped create). To put this in perspective consider these stats. In the US, iOS has 52.4% of the mobile OS market[1], and Android has 47%. In the US, Apple's App Store is responsible for the majority of mobile app sales[2], and has 3…

Given how much higher the iOS app sales are, it seems like Apple is providing very significant value for that 30% cut of theirs

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#107

Post by d1zzy »

stale2002 wrote: post #95
pwinnski wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What courts will need to decide is what constitutes a "market." The arguments against Apple all seem to hinge on the market being "people who own iOS devices," while the argument in favor of Apple all seem to hinge on the market being "people who own a smartphone." In one of those, Apple is a monopolist. In the other, Apple isn't even the biggest company.

> In the other, Apple isn't even the biggest company. Actually Apple would be the biggest company, in the market of people who have smartphones in the US. They just recently have a bit over 50% of that market. Also, Apple does not need to be a literal, singular company for its actions to be illegal. Instead, it only needs to have significant market power. It doesn't even need to have a majority of the market. > the a…

> Actually Apple would be the biggest company, in the market of people who have smartphones in the US. They just recently have a bit over 50% of that market.

Is Epic requiring Apple to only open their stores in the US?

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#108

Post by d1zzy »

horsawlarway wrote: post #60
thehappypm wrote: post #13

I find it hard to side with anyone but Apple here. Apple built not only the marketplace but the actual devices themselves. Apple is giving developers a marketplace of users with powerful processors, fast internet connections, and credit cards already connected. Installing an app is easier on a smartphone than any desktop. A big cut is well worth deserved, and the contract terms seem pretty fair. I can't see how Epic…

I say this bluntly - You sound like an apple fanboy who has no idea what the current state of software distribution is on most platforms. That aside - You're missing the forest for the trees. No one is saying Apple is not providing a service, no one is arguing that they shouldn't be able to charge what they want for that service. Everyone is saying that it's bullshit that Apple is the only service you can pick if you…

So what exactly does Epic want here? To force Apple to sell iOS (with configurable/multiple stores) as separate software that you might install on a separately iOS-less bought iPhone? To force Apple to sell iOS-less/unlocked iPhones?

This lawsuit is like saying that Google should be forced to allow for other browser than Chrome to be used on Chromebook devices. The whole device is a tightly integrated top to bottom solution and when you buy the device you buy the entire solution, not pieces of it. It's not an open system where you buy separate hardware/software components and some of those components aren't playing fair with the others or something.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#109

Post by thehappypm »

horsawlarway wrote: post #94
thehappypm wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My gut reaction to "app not on Apple store" is -- that's life, isn't it? Not every program is available on every store. I can't get Halo on my PlayStation. I can't get certain video editing tools on my PC. I can't get certain productivity software on my Mac. Disjointed app stores are annoying at worst, but I don't really see why there's any legal problem with that.

Legally, we're clearly still in a grey area for this. Ethically... I find it fairly immoral to intentionally prohibit users who have bought your product from using it in ways you don't like. Courts also tend to look poorly on this, but there's a narrow path to walk between enforcing interoperability and allowing innovation. I guess I'd say the concepts "sale" and "ownership" are at stake here. If I buy something, I e…

I do think there’s a bit of absurdity to this, though. I have a smart fridge. Is LG unethical for not letting me run Android apps on the little LCD? I have a right to that, don’t I?

The answer seems to become, I own the fridge, I can change it how I want, it I can figure out how, I can put whatever software I want on it.

Same with an iPhone—it’s my device, I can use it as a paperweight if I want, if I want, I can run Doom directly on it if I can figure out how.

Not sure why LG or Apple have an obligation to make sure their devices can run arbitrary programs.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#110

Post by d1zzy »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #48
thehappypm wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to call Apple a country.. there's alternatives out there and nobody is forcing you to use an iPhone, which is vastly different from a country, where you are forced to abide by its laws and pay its taxes. It's almost an absurd analogy. If I was to make an analogy, I might say Walmart is a better analogy. Walmart is the biggest store in town, but you do have alternatives and nobody is fo…

> there's alternatives out there and nobody is forcing you to use an iPhone In what way is this different than a country or a state? Nobody is forcing you to live in California, you could sell your house and get a different job and a different social cohort and move to Florida. Nobody is forcing you to use an iPhone, you could sell your phone and replace all your apps and convince everyone you know to switch away fro…

It's a bit of a stretch to be comparing using a different smartphone (you don't even need to use ANY smartphone) and moving the place where you live, work, etc.

Next, we'll see people complaining how google.com should be displaying alternative search engine links on their frontpage because it's too hard for people to type bing.com.

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