Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit • Hacker News Board

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#51

Post by horsawlarway » Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 9:32 PM UTC

judge2020 wrote: post #30

mdorazio wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really the core of the argument here. Epic is arguing that Apple's terms themselves (taking a cut of the revenue that's a direct result of Epic's team's efforts with zero options to do anything else) are not fair and should be unenforceable given its market position. Basically, breach of contract is only a valid legal basis when the contract itself is deemed legally acceptable. Ex. you can't force someone…

> that's a direct result of Epic's team's efforts Apple’s case is arguing (at least in part) that no, epic could not have made all of that money if Apple didn’t first put a hundred billion dollars and 10 years worth of investment into iPhone and iOS.

And I think this is clearly false.

Epic themselves have a distribution method that they've developed quite successfully on every platform except mobile, where they're not even allowed to compete because of the arbitrary restrictions Apple and Google have put in place on software distribution.

I think Apple's argument is incredibly disingenuous.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#52

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 9:32 PM UTC

franczesko wrote: post #32

thehappypm wrote: post #13

I find it hard to side with anyone but Apple here. Apple built not only the marketplace but the actual devices themselves. Apple is giving developers a marketplace of users with powerful processors, fast internet connections, and credit cards already connected. Installing an app is easier on a smartphone than any desktop. A big cut is well worth deserved, and the contract terms seem pretty fair. I can't see how Epic…

The problem is that Apple considers users of their hardware as their clients. In reality they're Epic's customers, not Apple's. It would be as silly as asking website owners to pay Apple, just because of the fact, that visitors came in with Safari browser.

This is the thought process I somewhat have of the issue as well. It's as if Comcast tried charging web businesses for the privilege to serve their customers. Meanwhile, they wouldn't be allowed to charge them if these sites didn't exist in the first place.

Apple made the platform, but they can't piss off the developers. Otherwise they're just going to alienate people and possibly major players to challenge them more or invest in other areas that don't take so much off of them. Apples Appstore becomes worthless the moment nobody supplies any worthwhile software...WHICH Apple needs.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#53

Post by heavyset_go » Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

kstrauser wrote: post #26

Animats wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument is like the railroad antitrust cases of a century ago. "The New York Central Railroad is giving shippers a marketplace of users with large freight terinals, fast locomotives, and railroad sidings already connected. A big cut is well worth deserved, and the contract terms seem pretty fair." (If you think Comcast is bad, read up on the history of railroad monopolies.)

One report shows Apple as having about 14% of the world smart phone market share in 2020, so I don't think that's a fair comparison. Apple's control over their App Store doesn't prevent Android users from using the Google Play Store, whereas the New York Central Railroad's ownership of freight terminals and rail lines prevents other people from building their own (because there are only so many places you can put a f…

In the US, iOS has 52.4% of the mobile OS market[1], and Android had 47%.

In the US, Apple's App Store is responsible for the majority of mobile app sales[2], and has 3 times the revenue of Google's Play Store.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held...

[2] https://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2020/01/in-2019...

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#54

Post by m00x » Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 9:36 PM UTC

zigzag312 wrote: post #41

I hope Epic succeeds. Apple has managed to create a virtual ecosystem and they have absolute control over it. Yes, they did it by creating a great product at the right time (at the rise of much improved telecommunications technology). With a combination of HW, OS and digital store they created more than just a product, they have created a platform. Based on that platform, with a big contribution from third party deve…

I think people don't understand the perspective here because it's being normalized by all the big players.

To make it simpler to understand, apply this system to your computer. What if you couldn't install what you wanted and everything would have to go through a protected store? If the platform dislikes your app, they could just remove it from the store and no one could get it.

It adds a huge gate in front of the hardware that YOU paid for. You're essentially getting milked from both sides which is terrific for Apple, awful for the consumer.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#55

Post by heavyset_go » Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 9:38 PM UTC

zigzag312 wrote: post #41

I hope Epic succeeds. Apple has managed to create a virtual ecosystem and they have absolute control over it. Yes, they did it by creating a great product at the right time (at the rise of much improved telecommunications technology). With a combination of HW, OS and digital store they created more than just a product, they have created a platform. Based on that platform, with a big contribution from third party deve…

> Software developers also don't have much choice. There are two platforms that control all the market share. They have to accept the rules given to them or leave the industry (one they helped create).

To put this in perspective consider these stats.

In the US, iOS has 52.4% of the mobile OS market[1], and Android has 47%.

In the US, Apple's App Store is responsible for the majority of mobile app sales[2], and has 3 times the revenue of Google's Play Store.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held...

[2] https://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2020/01/in-2019...

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#56

Post by some_furry » Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 9:42 PM UTC

zigzag312 wrote: post #41

I hope Epic succeeds. Apple has managed to create a virtual ecosystem and they have absolute control over it. Yes, they did it by creating a great product at the right time (at the rise of much improved telecommunications technology). With a combination of HW, OS and digital store they created more than just a product, they have created a platform. Based on that platform, with a big contribution from third party deve…

> Based on that platform, with a big contribution from third party developers, a virtual ecosystem has grown. Today, true value is in this whole ecosystem. And that is the point. Third party developers combined have probably contributed more man-hours/resources than Apple alone to increase the value of this ecosystem. Why should Apple have a total control of this ecosystem when they created only a part of it?

This sounds like a point that would come up often in critiques of capitalism.

> Software developers also don't have much choice. There are two platforms that control all the market share. They have to accept the rules given to them or leave the industry (one they helped create).

This is very true. Microsoft tried to turn the Apple/Google smartphone duopoly into a... triopoly? (Is that even a word?)

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#57

Post by nickff » Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 9:42 PM UTC

m00x wrote: post #54

zigzag312 wrote: post #41

I hope Epic succeeds. Apple has managed to create a virtual ecosystem and they have absolute control over it. Yes, they did it by creating a great product at the right time (at the rise of much improved telecommunications technology). With a combination of HW, OS and digital store they created more than just a product, they have created a platform. Based on that platform, with a big contribution from third party deve…

I think people don't understand the perspective here because it's being normalized by all the big players. To make it simpler to understand, apply this system to your computer. What if you couldn't install what you wanted and everything would have to go through a protected store? If the platform dislikes your app, they could just remove it from the store and no one could get it. It adds a huge gate in front of the ha…

The problem is not that your premise is too complicated for others to understand, it's that the 'walled garden' is a trade-off which people disagree about.

Walled gardens are safer, and usually have some implicit or explicit quality guarantee (like the Nintendo seal of quality).

Open platforms allow for more flexibility and innovation by new entrants.

On top of this disagreement, we have the meta-issue of whether business model innovation should be allowed; the USA generally permits new business models, whereas European governments are more restrictive.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#58

Post by horsawlarway » Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 9:43 PM UTC

felipellrocha wrote: post #6

storkhill wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I think Apple's in the right here. Every developer agrees to the App Store rules before releasing their applications. Apple created guidelines for their developers and they're simply taking advantage of that in court. Not saying I agree with it, but it doesn't go without reason.

Same. I don’t like Apple’s overreach in the industry, over all, but their apple store service is great, and they should be paid for it. Don’t wanna pay? Don’t go to the store.

I've said this before in previous discussions of this case -

I don't think anyone is arguing that Apple shouldn't have the right to charge companies that take advantage of the products and services that they've built in their store

I think that problem is that Apple is arbitrarily denying the ability for any other company to provide a competing product. How can you honestly evaluate the value proposition of Apple's "great" store, if they've killed all the competition?

You can't. Which is the whole damn point, because Epic HAS a store that I'm sure they'd love to release on iOS but Apple prohibits it.

Basically - Apple is the bully who's now crying foul when the competition is actually trying to enter the game.

From a monetary standpoint, I understand why Apple is doing this. As a developer and distributor of software (my day job), I cannot express clearly enough how much I'd like to see Apple lose this case. As far as I'm concerned, they can fuck right off.

I'm firmly in the "Handle it like MS and IE" camp - I want a court ruling that not only prohibits Apple from stopping competition in their store space, I want a MANDATORY popup on first use that asks the user which store they'd like to use.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#59

Post by wmf » Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #52

franczesko wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that Apple considers users of their hardware as their clients. In reality they're Epic's customers, not Apple's. It would be as silly as asking website owners to pay Apple, just because of the fact, that visitors came in with Safari browser.

This is the thought process I somewhat have of the issue as well. It's as if Comcast tried charging web businesses for the privilege to serve their customers. Meanwhile, they wouldn't be allowed to charge them if these sites didn't exist in the first place. Apple made the platform, but they can't piss off the developers. Otherwise they're just going to alienate people and possibly major players to challenge them more…

It's as if Comcast tried charging web businesses for the privilege to serve their customers.

Wait until you hear about intentional congestion, paid peering, and Netflix. https://qz.com/256586/the-inside-story-of-how-netflix-came-t...

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#60

Post by horsawlarway » Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 9:53 PM UTC

thehappypm wrote: post #13

I find it hard to side with anyone but Apple here. Apple built not only the marketplace but the actual devices themselves. Apple is giving developers a marketplace of users with powerful processors, fast internet connections, and credit cards already connected. Installing an app is easier on a smartphone than any desktop. A big cut is well worth deserved, and the contract terms seem pretty fair. I can't see how Epic…

I say this bluntly - You sound like an apple fanboy who has no idea what the current state of software distribution is on most platforms.

That aside - You're missing the forest for the trees.

No one is saying Apple is not providing a service, no one is arguing that they shouldn't be able to charge what they want for that service.

Everyone is saying that it's bullshit that Apple is the only service you can pick if your users are on iOS.

Basically - Why is it fair for apple to arbitrarily prevent the installation of any competing distribution methods?

Because from my perspective - It doesn't matter how great you think Apple's services are, you can't have an honest and informed opinion when they only ever let you see that one walled garden.

Epic is literally in the same market - They have a store, they developed a distribution channel, they paid developers, designers, QA, support, etc. But Apple has said "Nice store you've spent all that money building, such a shame we've decided we won't allow you to use it on an iPhone."