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Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

arstechnica.com

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Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#71

Post by [deleted] »

rbecker wrote: post #63
nickff wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not that your premise is too complicated for others to understand, it's that the 'walled garden' is a trade-off which people disagree about. Walled gardens are safer, and usually have some implicit or explicit quality guarantee (like the Nintendo seal of quality). Open platforms allow for more flexibility and innovation by new entrants. On top of this disagreement, we have the meta-issue of whether bus…

> Walled gardens are safer, and usually have some implicit or explicit quality guarantee (like the Nintendo seal of quality). And consumers who want to limit themselves to the safety of Apple's app store are free to do so. But Apple goes a step beyond this, and prevents consumers who don't want to be locked-in this way, from using "unauthorized" stores or apps. It's false to claim that the only way to offer safety is…

[deleted]

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#72

Post by bosswipe »

danbolt wrote: post #65
zigzag312 wrote: post #41

I hope Epic succeeds. Apple has managed to create a virtual ecosystem and they have absolute control over it. Yes, they did it by creating a great product at the right time (at the rise of much improved telecommunications technology). With a combination of HW, OS and digital store they created more than just a product, they have created a platform. Based on that platform, with a big contribution from third party deve…

> this ecosystem has outgrown Apple. It's got so big, that Apple's contribution is only a part of it. I feel like apart from 2-3 clients for other web services (eg: Twitter, Slack, etc.) I rarely purchase or download any apps. The last time I can remember installing one was the contact tracing app for where I live. I think I use the iPhone more as an appliance than a general-purpose computer. If I wanted the latter,…

If you wanted the latter you will find more and more that it doesn't exist as the duopoly tightens their grip on the market.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#73

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

wmf wrote: post #59
MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the thought process I somewhat have of the issue as well. It's as if Comcast tried charging web businesses for the privilege to serve their customers. Meanwhile, they wouldn't be allowed to charge them if these sites didn't exist in the first place. Apple made the platform, but they can't piss off the developers. Otherwise they're just going to alienate people and possibly major players to challenge them more…

It's as if Comcast tried charging web businesses for the privilege to serve their customers. Wait until you hear about intentional congestion, paid peering, and Netflix. https://qz.com/256586/the-inside-story-of-how-netflix-came-t...

Netflix could've easily gotten a coalition to fight that in court. They didn't because they're a major player in the market. Doing this helps drive out competitive streaming platforms when the cable providers begin gouging them. That's why they also coughed up to the others access providers without them doing the same thing as Comcast.

They're just playing pretend as a victim. They want people to believe what they're doing is right. In actuality their hedging to become the next version of Cable TV. With how bad Disney's revenue has been going this year, I wouldn't be surprised that if they keep taking hits like this, we could potentially see an acquisition or merger between the two.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#74

Post by simonh »

m00x wrote: post #54
zigzag312 wrote: post #41

I hope Epic succeeds. Apple has managed to create a virtual ecosystem and they have absolute control over it. Yes, they did it by creating a great product at the right time (at the rise of much improved telecommunications technology). With a combination of HW, OS and digital store they created more than just a product, they have created a platform. Based on that platform, with a big contribution from third party deve…

I think people don't understand the perspective here because it's being normalized by all the big players. To make it simpler to understand, apply this system to your computer. What if you couldn't install what you wanted and everything would have to go through a protected store? If the platform dislikes your app, they could just remove it from the store and no one could get it. It adds a huge gate in front of the ha…

> What if you couldn't install what you wanted and everything would have to go through a protected store?

You mean like on my Nintendo Switch, which I knew worked like that when I bought it and was part of my calculation when buying it?

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#75

Post by horsawlarway »

thehappypm wrote: post #70
horsawlarway wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say this bluntly - You sound like an apple fanboy who has no idea what the current state of software distribution is on most platforms. That aside - You're missing the forest for the trees. No one is saying Apple is not providing a service, no one is arguing that they shouldn't be able to charge what they want for that service. Everyone is saying that it's bullshit that Apple is the only service you can pick if you…

It might not seem fair as a developer, but as an iPhone user, I don't have any problem with all my apps coming from one trusted store. Just compare it to Windows. Apps can still be downloaded in several inconsistent ways, and it's hard to trust applications you download arbitrarily.

So continue to use the Apple store and you have no problems.

App not on the Apple store? Don't use the app. So simple.

---

I bet your first response to that statement isn't positive - Now reflect that this is exactly what Apple is saying to developers. "Don't want to use our store? Don't release on iOS."

Because right now, if you use an application on iOS, you are not a customer of that application. You are an Apple customer who happens to use a product resold by Apple.

Now - I have no problem with you preferring that arrangement, and I'm certainly not suggesting removing the Apple app store. I'm just saying it feels a tad like bullshit. Maybe entirely like bullshit. Actually - Nope, it's just bullshit.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#76

Post by smileybarry »

thehappypm wrote: post #70
horsawlarway wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say this bluntly - You sound like an apple fanboy who has no idea what the current state of software distribution is on most platforms. That aside - You're missing the forest for the trees. No one is saying Apple is not providing a service, no one is arguing that they shouldn't be able to charge what they want for that service. Everyone is saying that it's bullshit that Apple is the only service you can pick if you…

It might not seem fair as a developer, but as an iPhone user, I don't have any problem with all my apps coming from one trusted store. Just compare it to Windows. Apps can still be downloaded in several inconsistent ways, and it's hard to trust applications you download arbitrarily.

Except on Windows, you can establish that trust level with stores as you go along, instead of having just one store.

For example, I trust Steam, GOG, Epic's store (though I don't use Epic's because I don't want to fragment my library), and a whole assortment of developers specifically.

Also, it's not 2007 anymore, if you trust a developer you can almost always guarantee the app came from the trusted source through code signing. Almost everything is code-signed nowadays. If it isn't, Windows lets you know about it. If it's also not a popular app, the platform actively alerts you about it. VirusTotal and other reputation services also help you make an informed decision on whether an app is trustworthy or not.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#77

Post by pjmlp »

cdash wrote: post #68
cygx wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play devil's advocate: PC aside, isn't this business as usual for gaming platforms?

Gaming platforms are single use platforms. Mobile phones much like a PC are general purpose devices that peoples entire lives revolve around.

Just like portable game consoles, with their app stores and internet connection.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#78

Post by cgriswald »

cdash wrote: post #68
cygx wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play devil's advocate: PC aside, isn't this business as usual for gaming platforms?

Gaming platforms are single use platforms. Mobile phones much like a PC are general purpose devices that peoples entire lives revolve around.

That's not a particularly compelling argument to me. I'd rather see direct comparisons made. Do gaming platforms require a 30% cut of all sales on the platform, including subscriptions? Do they forbid applications from discussing other subscription options? Etc.

I'd say the GP isn't really playing devil's advocate, because he hasn't shown the comparison is apt nor that if it is apt, the gaming platforms aren't also a problem for consumers.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#79

Post by Retric »

rbecker wrote: post #63
nickff wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not that your premise is too complicated for others to understand, it's that the 'walled garden' is a trade-off which people disagree about. Walled gardens are safer, and usually have some implicit or explicit quality guarantee (like the Nintendo seal of quality). Open platforms allow for more flexibility and innovation by new entrants. On top of this disagreement, we have the meta-issue of whether bus…

> Walled gardens are safer, and usually have some implicit or explicit quality guarantee (like the Nintendo seal of quality). And consumers who want to limit themselves to the safety of Apple's app store are free to do so. But Apple goes a step beyond this, and prevents consumers who don't want to be locked-in this way, from using "unauthorized" stores or apps. It's false to claim that the only way to offer safety is…

Freedom and computer security are in fundamental opposition. It’s the same basic question as GC vs manual memory management.

The only way to offer safety on a platform is to secure that platform. If Apple disables the API’s which lets apps access users contacts then they can be sure 3rd party iOS stores don’t compromise user’s privacy. If they allow API access and don’t vet stores then guess what that directly means breaches will occur.

PS: If you disagree try and come up with some supporting argument.

Re: Judge dismisses Apple’s “theft” claims in Epic Games lawsuit

#80

Post by tjoff »

m00x wrote: post #54
zigzag312 wrote: post #41

I hope Epic succeeds. Apple has managed to create a virtual ecosystem and they have absolute control over it. Yes, they did it by creating a great product at the right time (at the rise of much improved telecommunications technology). With a combination of HW, OS and digital store they created more than just a product, they have created a platform. Based on that platform, with a big contribution from third party deve…

I think people don't understand the perspective here because it's being normalized by all the big players. To make it simpler to understand, apply this system to your computer. What if you couldn't install what you wanted and everything would have to go through a protected store? If the platform dislikes your app, they could just remove it from the store and no one could get it. It adds a huge gate in front of the ha…

Unless people stop buying apple products that is coming to a future near you.

I will never get why people will so happily pay to get locked into an ecosystem they are guaranteed to be extorted by.

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