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It's 2030. I own nothing, have no privacy, and life has never been better (2016)

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Re: It's 2030. I own nothing, have no privacy, and life has never been better (2016)

#161

Post by godelski »

xapata wrote: post #143
motohagiography wrote: post #118

What the author describes is humans living in captivity. There is a cadre of people who argue, "really? you wouldn't survive a day outside this so-called captivity, tough guy" and then go on to justify how their various compromises are somehow moral. To me that whole line of argument is just indoors cats lecturing outdoors cats about how to manage the shame of dependency, which outdoors cats just don't have. If we do…

> living in captivity That's a big leap, and you've given no explanation for it. Perhaps we have different understandings of what captivity means, so it'd be helpful if you define your terms. To me, captivity is a location (or metaphorical location, so a situation) you want to leave, but can't. In the article, the narrator does not indicate a desire to leave, or any difficulty doing so if they wished. The bit about b…

My cat almost never wants to go outside. She also isn't allowed outside. So is she captive or not? What if I let her out? She's still my pet and while I love her, she's captive. I'm not sure it would be different if she was an outdoor cat except her life expectancy would drop. Would you not define my cat (a pet) as captive?

Re: It's 2030. I own nothing, have no privacy, and life has never been better (2016)

#162

Post by [deleted] »

ryaniscool wrote: post #33

Personally, I think a future where AI can do most jobs is frightening. It will be run by a group of relatively few elites that are involved in power struggles for control of the AI and the rest of us that do stuff like pick fruit (assuming it's cheaper than having an AI do it) and serve as cannon fodder in the AI armies. I find people who believe that it will lead to some kind of Utopia horribly naive and they have n…

[deleted]

Re: It's 2030. I own nothing, have no privacy, and life has never been better (2016)

#163

Post by cle »

bccdee wrote: post #145
motohagiography wrote: post #118

What the author describes is humans living in captivity. There is a cadre of people who argue, "really? you wouldn't survive a day outside this so-called captivity, tough guy" and then go on to justify how their various compromises are somehow moral. To me that whole line of argument is just indoors cats lecturing outdoors cats about how to manage the shame of dependency, which outdoors cats just don't have. If we do…

I have plenty of problems with this article, but I think it's a bit odd to consider dependency upon the institutions of - grocery stores - transportation - electricity - various repair-people such as electricians and plumbers - an employer - a well-regulated economy as "being a independent outdoor cat," but then suddenly once you're renting your clothes instead of buying them that's a bridge too far, and you're "capt…

We can't control most of those things, since they are already established and institutionalized and very difficult to change. However during the transition from buying to renting clothes, we do have an opportunity to influence the outcome.

You're right that the terminology of "freedom" and "captivity" is weird...I've always thought it's strange because historically it's been so relative. But I think quibbling over where to draw the line is missing the point, and basically has the same problem as what you're decrying. When we have the power to influence the outcome of something, we shouldn't resign in despair because we can't cleanly classify it...we can still make informed decisions under that uncertainty.

Re: It's 2030. I own nothing, have no privacy, and life has never been better (2016)

#164

Post by tengbretson »

bccdee wrote: post #145
motohagiography wrote: post #118

What the author describes is humans living in captivity. There is a cadre of people who argue, "really? you wouldn't survive a day outside this so-called captivity, tough guy" and then go on to justify how their various compromises are somehow moral. To me that whole line of argument is just indoors cats lecturing outdoors cats about how to manage the shame of dependency, which outdoors cats just don't have. If we do…

I have plenty of problems with this article, but I think it's a bit odd to consider dependency upon the institutions of - grocery stores - transportation - electricity - various repair-people such as electricians and plumbers - an employer - a well-regulated economy as "being a independent outdoor cat," but then suddenly once you're renting your clothes instead of buying them that's a bridge too far, and you're "capt…

No matter where you stand on a number line it is always possible to look to the left and say "that direction is negative."

Re: It's 2030. I own nothing, have no privacy, and life has never been better (2016)

#165

Post by bccdee »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #117
vulcan01 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if everyone has a baseline income, nobody does I believe the argument for UBI is based on economic utility: $1000 a month is worth more to a poor person than a rich person.

I think the counterargument is that if everyone suddenly has $1000/month more, the market will very quickly eat it all, as prices readjust to consume the extra disposable income. I want UBI to work. But I haven't heard of a good strategy to mitigate what I just described.

You can't use cash. Guaranteed housing, a universal food stamp program that doesn't suck — there are ways we can give everyone a fixed amount of additional value without injecting extra money into the economy and seeing inflation happen. After all, a grocery store can raise its prices on customers, but when it has to hand its food stamp receipts to the state for reimbursement, the state can ensure that prices don't rise for the consumer while subsidizing as needed.

As far as real cash payouts go, there's value to them, but not universally. In order to have the maximum impact they need to be limited to people with little to no other income.

Re: It's 2030. I own nothing, have no privacy, and life has never been better (2016)

#166

Post by ben_w »

aboringusername wrote: post #61
ryaniscool wrote: post #33

Personally, I think a future where AI can do most jobs is frightening. It will be run by a group of relatively few elites that are involved in power struggles for control of the AI and the rest of us that do stuff like pick fruit (assuming it's cheaper than having an AI do it) and serve as cannon fodder in the AI armies. I find people who believe that it will lead to some kind of Utopia horribly naive and they have n…

Who watches the watchers? ;) AI is all nice and rosy but how do we know it's "right"? How can a machine be indifferent to human influences? How do we know it's not biased? Does it discriminate? It's a not a human, it can't "think" like one, it's not capable of rational and fluid thought and argument. It's a dumb machine feeding off data, unless you give it all the data it's bound to be inaccurate at some point. AI is…

While I would agree a current generation AI doesn’t think like a human, saying AI in general can’t is much to strong a claim.

Also:

> it's not capable of rational and fluid thought and argument

applies to most humans, and

> unless you give it all the data it's bound to be inaccurate at some point

applies to all humans.

Re: It's 2030. I own nothing, have no privacy, and life has never been better (2016)

#167

Post by godelski »

john_moscow wrote: post #155

A bigger, much bigger problem, is that having a family and raising kids is effectively being outsourced to cheaper countries. Come to think of it, about 50 years ago you could afford a mortgage on a detached house from a single salary, where the other parent would dedicate their time to raising/teaching the kids. That would also make people need each other more, and care more about alignment of values, since that's s…

I think part of the problem is that people see criticism as blame and bad actors. Really criticism is about improving and is an essential aspect of any democracy. It's also fair to say that many that complain blame, but some take advantage and deserve blame.

But a big problem is that any criticism is considered a bad thing. I actually run into this problem a lot when I tell people it's more important to criticize the leaders of your party, because you have a voice in that party. So you can actually iterate and improve your party. You don't have a voice in the opposing party and many times complaining about the other is used smugly to express how your party is superior.

We forgot that critique is about improving, not hating.

Re: It's 2030. I own nothing, have no privacy, and life has never been better (2016)

#168

Post by ben_w »

Gnarl wrote: post #159
indymike wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is interesting is that how much of the economy would have to lose most or all revenue for this model to work. Shrinking GDP is very hard to pull off.

"Shrinking GDP is very hard to pull off" . Isn't that what's happening right now? With govt's carpet bombing their economies through lockdown?

I wouldn’t describe a contagious deadly global pandemic as “easy”.

Even despite the current situation, there are many people desperate for a return to the economic status-quo.

Re: It's 2030. I own nothing, have no privacy, and life has never been better (2016)

#170

Post by xapata »

godelski wrote: post #161
xapata wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> living in captivity That's a big leap, and you've given no explanation for it. Perhaps we have different understandings of what captivity means, so it'd be helpful if you define your terms. To me, captivity is a location (or metaphorical location, so a situation) you want to leave, but can't. In the article, the narrator does not indicate a desire to leave, or any difficulty doing so if they wished. The bit about b…

My cat almost never wants to go outside. She also isn't allowed outside. So is she captive or not? What if I let her out? She's still my pet and while I love her, she's captive. I'm not sure it would be different if she was an outdoor cat except her life expectancy would drop. Would you not define my cat (a pet) as captive?

For most pet cats, no. In my own experience with a pet cat, if he really wanted to run away, he could have. The opposite would happen. He'd sneak out when we weren't paying attention and then we'd accidentally lock him outside. We'd eventually hear the meowing and let him back in.
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