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American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

zdnet.com

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Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#151

Post by NikolaeVarius »

js2 wrote: post #142
NikolaeVarius wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notice how 5/6 reasons the accident report contains are "crew screwed up"

That's a "you're holding it wrong" argument. There are always human factors, no matter how well trained. So while the errors these pilots made shouldn't have happened if they were better trained, at least one of the errors, fighting over who was controlling the plane w/o realizing it, is impossible in a Boeing cockpit.

No its not. The point of these reports is to get to the "primary causes" of the accident and include design decisions that contribute to an accident.

These are trained pilots who did not follow their training. They didn't follow procedures that were in place for these types of events. They did not follow cockpit management procedures. They didnt know how to properly deal with stall conditions, a fundamental piloting skill. They managed to crash a airplane that was flying perfectly fine.

I don't understand the fixation on the sidestick. Its not like they just tossed it in there. Thousands of engineer hours were spent creating the systems to manage control inputs. It may have been a contributing factor, but the sidestick isn't even mentioned in the proposed improvements section. This was pilot failure.

Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#152

Post by gecko »

js2 wrote: post #142
NikolaeVarius wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notice how 5/6 reasons the accident report contains are "crew screwed up"

That's a "you're holding it wrong" argument. There are always human factors, no matter how well trained. So while the errors these pilots made shouldn't have happened if they were better trained, at least one of the errors, fighting over who was controlling the plane w/o realizing it, is impossible in a Boeing cockpit.

The thing is, in all aircraft (very much including this Airbus), there are procedures you're supposed to follow for certain failure conditions. They're generally in something called the Quick Reference Handbook, or QRH, but there are also simple flows that crews are supposed to be trained for. One thing that is key in this situation is to announce "my plane" if you are the one flying...which never happened. The Airbus also has a button to mark sidestick priority, removing the other pilot's inputs entirely. That also was not used. No, one part of this (holding the stick full back) could not happen on a Boeing, but the rest of it sure could.

The thing that personally scares me is not Airbus' take on how to fly planes, but rather Boeing's current take on the 737MAX where things are physical controls, kinda, somewhat, unless they aren't and become fly-by-wire. That's the issue with the MAX: if they'd been willing to train pilots for the new dynamics, rather than try to mask it with MCAS, it'd be fine. If it were fully fly-by-wire like an Airbus, it'd be fine. But the halfway house confused everybody on board.

Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#153

Post by mandeepj »

js2 wrote: post #35
deeblering4 wrote: post #23

I’m at a point where I just opt for carriers with Airbus fleets. I do not trust modern day American corporations nor the oversight bodies. There are too many financial incentives to cut corners.

For years after AF447 I was nervous flying airbus. In reality, it's extremely unlikely that you'll die flying. (I'd be nervous flying a Max too, but it's not rational.)

> In reality, it's extremely unlikely that you'll die flying

Ironically, hundreds and hundreds of people have died, and that's what caused a ban on 737MAX

Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#155

Post by ravi-delia »

ProAm wrote: post #146
js2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For years after AF447 I was nervous flying airbus. In reality, it's extremely unlikely that you'll die flying. (I'd be nervous flying a Max too, but it's not rational.)

> it's extremely unlikely that you'll die flying It's usually the not-flying that kills you

Given airplane safety statistics, you actually probably are more likely to die flying than not flying as long as you're in a plane.

Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#156

Post by geoelectric »

schainks wrote: post #154

My friends who have recently flown American have all complained how shitty American's COVID precautions are. Bringing the 737Max back isn't going to change bad service.

On the plus side, you won't have to tolerate the bad service for a whole flight.

Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#157

Post by stouset »

getpost wrote: post #114
js2 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pitot tubes had iced-over and it wasn't the first time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447#Pitot_tu... But that's not what made me nervous about Airbus. Rather, that's when I learned that Airbuses are flown by side-sticks that aren't mechanically linked while Boeings are flown by yokes which are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447#Side-sti... The idea that two pilots can provide…

The advantages of fly-by-wire are too good to pass up, so that leaves the question of how to design an FBW system. A high school teacher of mine in the 1970s predicted an accident like AF447. He framed it this way: the 'American' approach is to implement FBW to always do what the pilot inputs indicate, whereas the 'French' approach is to do the right thing, and override the pilot if the FBW 'knows' better. That's an…

None of this is relevant to the actual issue raised by the GP: the yokes of the pilot and co-pilot are not mechanically linked. They can be mechanically linked even with a FBW system. And personally, as someone with a bit of flying experience myself, I can't comprehend why you'd want them to not be mechanically linked. The opportunity for confusion with conflicting inputs is too damn high.

Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#158

Post by [deleted] »

alavesto wrote: post #124
jonas21 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean the same regulatory organizations that have reduced the US airline fatality rate by 50x over the last 50 years to the point where it's now over 100x safer per mile to fly than to drive? I mean the FAA certainly has some flaws, but it's important to keep things in perspective.

I think the passenger miles statistic is baloney (calculated by multiplying the number of passengers by the number of miles travelled), and I'm a bit sick of seeing it trumpeted everywhere to claim flying is vastly safer than driving. The collective risk of everyone on board the plane is meaningless to calculating risk to your personal safety. At least for me, the fatality rate per journey, per hour of travel, or at…

[deleted]

Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#159

Post by koenigdavidmj »

selectodude wrote: post #138
jedberg wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which domestic US airline flies Airbus?

Spirit, Frontier, American, United, Delta, JetBlue; i'm sure I'm forgetting a couple. The only airlines that are exclusively Boeing are Alaska Airlines and Southwest.

Alaska isn’t exclusively Boeing ever since they bought out Virgin America and its A320 fleet.

Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#160

Post by marcosdumay »

js2 wrote: post #35
deeblering4 wrote: post #23

I’m at a point where I just opt for carriers with Airbus fleets. I do not trust modern day American corporations nor the oversight bodies. There are too many financial incentives to cut corners.

For years after AF447 I was nervous flying airbus. In reality, it's extremely unlikely that you'll die flying. (I'd be nervous flying a Max too, but it's not rational.)

The Max doesn't have the safety levels normal airplanes have.

There haven't been enough flights to get confidence on an exact amount, but it's near the level of urban transportation, not of airline planes.

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