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American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

zdnet.com

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Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#61

Post by bronson »

atharris wrote: post #38
richardARPANET wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the plane is aerodynamically flawed by design. I'll never step foot on one.

Aerospace controls engineer here - while the airframe might not be passively stable (as is common for civilian aircraft), dynamically unstable aircraft have been stabilized with control software since the 70s [0]. If you've flown on an MD-11, you've flown on an 'aerodynamically flawed' aircraft. Most real systems are dynamically unstable without some kind of controller (implying software) in the loop. [0] https://en.…

The MD-11 that was so crashy that airlines eventually sold their airframes to freight companies because cargo can’t refuse to get on one?

Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#62

Post by _fat_santa »

phkahler wrote: post #54
phire wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certianlly not just a single flaw. They found and fixed multiple other flaws while checking though everything for re-certification. In my opinion, the 737Max is probably one of the safest planes right now, simply because of the amount of scrutiny it's been though.

Well the engine placement hasn't been changed and that was the underlying problem that lead to everything else.

To be a bit more nuanced, it's not that the engine placement was the problem, rather it was that Boeing made software adjustments to make the plane fly like a regular 737 without training the pilots in these changes.

The engine is the start of the problems

Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#63

Post by redler »

addicted wrote: post #37
tuna-piano wrote: post #12

737Max is certainly tainted now. But will that last forever? And do non-HN-aviation-geek consumers really care enough to check the model of the plane they'll be flying on, let alone make a flight decision based on the model? Certainly another crash could be devastating to the model. But was the 737Max a poorly designed death trap rushed to production or a super safe airplane with a single fatal flaw? Time will tell..…

In my experience the non aviation geeks are also worried about 737 Max’s. That’s validated by the fact that the involved companies are referring to it as the 737-8 instead, which will not fool anyone who knows anything about aviation and is geared entirely towards ordinary people.

There's already the 737-800. So you're saying companies flying the Max may have in their fleet both a 737-800 (aka the "738"), and what they're now calling a "737-8"?

Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#64

Post by bruceb »

LatteLazy wrote: post #41
tuna-piano wrote: post #12

737Max is certainly tainted now. But will that last forever? And do non-HN-aviation-geek consumers really care enough to check the model of the plane they'll be flying on, let alone make a flight decision based on the model? Certainly another crash could be devastating to the model. But was the 737Max a poorly designed death trap rushed to production or a super safe airplane with a single fatal flaw? Time will tell..…

How many people actually look at what plane they're meant to get when they compare times, dates and prices for their booking? Let alone what plane is actually at the boarding gate 6 months later...

Before very few. I absolutely would now.

I bet more than a few traders looking for an edge are trying to find someone who works at Kayak to tell them how many more clicks there are in “see full flight details” before purchasing a flight there are now.

Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#65

Post by intricatedetail »

omginternets wrote: post #2

Is there any way to know what kind of aircraft you'll be boarding when purchasing tickets? I've never paid attention until now, and the 737-Max is definitely a non-starter.

If I saw 737MAX pulling at the terminal I would have cancelled the trip, but usually airline shows plane at itinerary and you can check flightradar what planes fly that route.

Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#66

Post by tboyd47 »

deeblering4 wrote: post #23

I’m at a point where I just opt for carriers with Airbus fleets. I do not trust modern day American corporations nor the oversight bodies. There are too many financial incentives to cut corners.

Yes, same. Too bad we cannot control which airplane we fly on; it's totally up to the airline and they can switch it at any time.

Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#67

Post by wycy »

I still don't think I'd trust it.

While it's probably true that they fixed the software to never again produce this kind of error, I don't like the idea of software being used to correct the fundamental physics that the airframe is dynamically unstable. While the software probably does a good job of correcting it under a wide range of normal operating conditions, can it deal with evolving or abnormal operating conditions? Will the software still be able to compensate if the pitch-up moment is artificially increased by, e.g. the roof turning into a scoop, or flaps jamming, or a small piece of wing trim breaking? Would Aloha Airlines Flight 243 still have landed safely after the roof came off, becoming a scoop, if it were instead a 737Max?

Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#68

Post by robjan »

x87678r wrote: post #21

What are people going to fly instead? The regular 737? Have you seen the list of how many 737 crashes there have been? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incident... Or maybe A320 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incident...

See the hull loss per million. Using that metric you are 34 times more likely to experience a hull loss incident on a 737 MAX than a 320 http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/rate_mod.htm

Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#69

Post by raverbashing »

ConceitedCode wrote: post #34
gruez wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is? I think the parent was talking about: >Travis is unequivocal in his assessment of the Boeing 737 MAX. “It’s a faulty airframe. You’ve got to fix the airframe [and] you can’t fix the airframe without moving the engines” back and away from their current position. >The root problem with the engine-forward design is “once this thing pitches up, it wants to keep pitching up,” said Travis. “That’s a big no-no,”…

FYI - Background on the guy being quoted "Gregory Travis, a veteran software engineer and experienced, instrument-rated pilot who has flown aircraft simulators as large as the Boeing 757" I know a few veteran software engineers that are instrument-rated and frankly I'm not sure I would listen to any of them over the FAA or aeronautical engineers. Probably good for some perspective, but not exactly a great source for…

I agree with you, aerodynamics and airframes are not something so trivial to understand.

"who has flown aircraft simulators as large as the Boeing 757"

Talk about a big aircraft simulator, those that I know are the size of a car, not of a 757 (jk)

Re: American Airlines Is Quietly Bringing Back the 737Max

#70

Post by larrik »

Schiendelman wrote: post #44
outside1234 wrote: post #29

Does it matter? Nobody with any sense or care for their fellow human being should be flying now.

It’s not clear that’s true. Flying doesn’t appear to be causing covid to spread.

Anecdote! One of my co-workers appears to have gotten covid from flying.
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