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What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

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Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#71

Post by carok »

whatshisface wrote: post #31
pavlov wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thomas More, author of "Utopia", had six people burned at the stake for heresy when he was Lord Chancellor of England in 1529-32. That's no different from human sacrifice to a god.

It's difficult to weigh the difference between two extreme bads, so I understand how you could come to that conclusion. However "don't say anything on this list of things not to say" is an order that could at least by choice be complied with. Imagine yourself in Europe and also in Central America. Would you rather live under the fear of heresy laws or under the fear of human sacrifice? In the former case you could ch…

I'm curious about how much do we actually know about was picked for sacrifice under the aztec rule. It seems like there is a consensus on this thread that all were innocent common citizens, but a lot of documentation shows that at least a sizeable portion of sacrifices were prisoners of war.

This doesnt make it morally more excusable, but it tempers your point as not everyone was a potential target of sacrifice.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#72

Post by carok »

whatshisface wrote: post #34
garren wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Execution “for fun” seems inappropriate here, doesn’t it? The comparison to medieval European justice also seems a little apples and oranges. Maybe a comparison to the Inquisition and/or the burning of supposed witches - both religious in nature, both horrendous, both seemingly an attempt to unify societies under a common belief?

The Inquisition is getting closer, but moving the conversation from the justice system to the inquisition does make it look like we're just trying to compare the moral goodness of Europeans and Aztecs. Well, groups like "Europeans" can't have a level of moral goodness, only individual people can. Obviously any European serial killer was worse than the average Aztec. So if that's the discussion we're implicitly having…

Separating the church (religion) and justice in medieval europe doesn't make much sense, as the church was the highest political power in europe back then.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#73

Post by h0l0cube »

oh_sigh wrote: post #41
h0l0cube wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only know as much from the podcast I mentioned in the sibling comment, but it seem they were somewhat caricaturized. If you listen to the Podcast you learn the other side of how they were massacred by Cortes, which doesn't really cast the Spanish in a good light. (But surely we can learn from the Spanish despite the acts of Cortes?) Edit: A cursory wiki search leads to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacr…

By "massacred by Cortes", surely you mean "Massacred by 700 Spanish people, and 90,000 natives who were really pissed at the Aztecs and wanted revenge". Sources indicate(if you can trust them) that the Spanish tried to stop some of the widespread atrocities that the allied natives were doing to the Aztecs, but were powerless against a group 100x their size.

Supplying the armor and weapons necessary to an army that size, knowing the likely outcome, makes Cortes culpable. And the outcome is exactly what he intended, and enabled. This could be said of any of the proxy wars fought around the world today.

But yes, not excusing a brutal tradition of sacrifice. I think my argument stands, though, that you can learn positive things from any population/civilization that has cruel actors (or cruel traditions) within it. Be it the Spaniards, despite the conquistadors, or the Aztecs, because of the warrior elite.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#74

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

Thuggery wrote: post #69
LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were they really? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_writing & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_codices Maybe the masses, but not their priesthood, elites, or such. Similar to ancient egypt, I think. You don't say they were illiterate just because they used cuneiform, or do you?

> Were they really? I'm no linguist, but every time I've looked into this the answer has been yes. Though there is this weird trend to heavily suggest otherwise even in supposed serious sources, which has given me a major chip on my shoulder on this issue. What they have is proto-writing. The Mayans have full writing, supposedly, and Aztec "script" seems to look like the Mayan's so many assume it must be the same, wh…

Hm, k. Btw. cuneiform was an error from my side. I meant to say the paintings in this typical strange sideways view.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#75

Post by nyolfen »

ch4s3 wrote: post #63
nyolfen wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the aztec empire lasted for less than two centuries. the six figure estimate provided by the conquistador was written off as fabricated or exaggerated, unti the skull towers were discovered by archaeologists, and a few years later were discovered to roughly match the dimensions provided by the conquistador. i gave half his number as a conservative hedge. the aztecs are believed to sacrificed tens of thousands of peop…

I wouldn’t say uniquely. The ancient Assyrian’s we’re pretty into their horrific brand of terrifying their neighbors. The Cultural Revolution also seems pretty bad to cite a more recent example.

> Not understanding the implications of this request, Achitometl acceded to the honour; his daughter went to Tizaapan, where she was splendidly arrayed and sacrificed. Following an old custom, the body was flayed and a priest donned her skin in an ancient agricultural rite symbolising the renewal of life. The unsuspecting chieftain Achitometl, invited to participate in the concluding festivities, suddenly recognised the skin of his daughter on the body of the priest.

this was a traditional rite; the skin would then be placed in a clay vessel underneath a temple or shrine alongside many others

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#76

Post by hutzlibu »

bigbubba wrote: post #59
hutzlibu wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"catherine the Great is called great not because she was particularly benevolent, but because Russia became more powerful and expansive during her reign. " Yes, I am aware of that. But in classic history this seems to be the same. Good and great is having conquered much. And also in the general perception. The hollywood movies of Caesar or Alexander? Pure admiration. No serious criticism(or any at all), I remember of…

I think people are attracted to extreme things in general and power in particular. The great white shark is great because it's huge and powerful, though it's considered monstrous in popular culture. In my experience it's also the favorite shark of nearly any kid who likes sharks, probably because it is immense and powerful. "World's [blankiest] [blank]" is generally a pretty popular genre, regardless of the subject.…

"I think the obsession with the world's 'great' leaders like Genghis Khan or Alexander is just another manifestation of this."

It is, but would you not object to calling "Hitler the great"? Even though he was great by standards of conquering and slaughtering?

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#77

Post by 1-more »

nyolfen wrote: post #62
1-more wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice. Smaller, less networked geographical area, but maybe a longer time scale to accrue them all? All signs point to "at least same order of magnitude" here. Edit I'm seeing 6 figure conquistador estimates and a 3 figure number acquired so far? Do you have a cite for 50k? Seems like a likely enough number just curious if anything has been refined since this https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5893933/The…

the aztec empire lasted for less than two centuries. the six figure estimate provided by the conquistador was written off as fabricated or exaggerated, unti the skull towers were discovered by archaeologists, and a few years later were discovered to roughly match the dimensions provided by the conquistador. i gave half his number as a conservative hedge. the aztecs are believed to sacrificed tens of thousands of peop…

Gnarly!! And ty for the source elsethread. Fascinating stuff. Sounds like a no-good empire! Not a fan.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#78

Post by ch4s3 »

nyolfen wrote: post #75
ch4s3 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t say uniquely. The ancient Assyrian’s we’re pretty into their horrific brand of terrifying their neighbors. The Cultural Revolution also seems pretty bad to cite a more recent example.

> Not understanding the implications of this request, Achitometl acceded to the honour; his daughter went to Tizaapan, where she was splendidly arrayed and sacrificed. Following an old custom, the body was flayed and a priest donned her skin in an ancient agricultural rite symbolising the renewal of life. The unsuspecting chieftain Achitometl, invited to participate in the concluding festivities, suddenly recognised…

I’m familiar with the story. That’s sort of my point the ancient Assyrians were well known for flaying thousands of people alive all at once after recapturing a city. They decorated their palaces with scenes of it.
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