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US Government Continues Encryption War

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Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#81

Post by hutzlibu »

progre wrote: post #43
hutzlibu wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"are still trying to build this ugly human pyramid of subordination, just like in a primal tribe" Well, there is a argument, that this is the case, because having leaders and followers is somewhat build in our DNA, if our ancestors lived like that for millions of years. But the power structure in primal tribes were seldom true pyramidical. (That developed later in civilisation.) You had council of elders, the shamans…

I thought that consensus rule was the dominant form of organanisation up to fairly recently, maybe 200000 years ago. This seems to work well for groups of about 50-70 individuals. Leaders and followers by that theory is something that comes with agriculture and trade and the larger groups needed for that. So I wouldn't be so sure that it's "in our dna".

I agree. On a larger base, I believe it to be mainly consensus, too.

But with (different) authorities. Organizing the hunt in bigger animals or groups seem to require authority. Alpha male who leads the pack.

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#82

Post by verroq »

tzs wrote: post #64
est31 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that institutions are shorter lived than one might think. If you have become 25 this year, you'll have lived for more than 10% of the US's entire lifetime. 75, and you'll have lived for a third of its existence. Those institutions which are longer lived are usually subject to tons of change. Think of the imperial Chinese system with its many dynasties or the church with its schisms. And despite behaviourally mod…

> Note that institutions are shorter lived than one might think. If you have become 25 this year, you'll have lived for more than 10% of the US's entire lifetime. 75, and you'll have lived for a third of its existence. Note also that the US has one of the longest lived current governments in the world. There are plenty of countries that have been around longer, but most of them have forms of government that came into…

Survivorship bias

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#83

Post by ayemiller »

kordlessagain wrote: post #69

> Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Lindsey Graham (R-South Carolina) and U.S. Senators Tom Cotton (R-Arkansas) and Marsha Blackburn (R-Tennessee) today introduced the Lawful Access to Encrypted Data Act Lindsey Graham is a turtle.

I think you've got the wrong guy.

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#84

Post by tzs »

verroq wrote: post #82
tzs wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Note that institutions are shorter lived than one might think. If you have become 25 this year, you'll have lived for more than 10% of the US's entire lifetime. 75, and you'll have lived for a third of its existence. Note also that the US has one of the longest lived current governments in the world. There are plenty of countries that have been around longer, but most of them have forms of government that came into…

Survivorship bias

Survivorship bias is a type of logical error that can be made when making inferences from data that has been filtered.

I neither made nor implied any inferences, so it is hard to see how there can be survivorship bias.

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#85

Post by doc_gunthrop »

It's a real shame that far too many people's opinions can be made by simply arguing the four horsemen of the infocalypse[0]. These are the same types of arguments used by certain groups to promulgate their own agendas at the cost of individual liberties.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalyp...

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#86

Post by Normille »

dane-pgp wrote: post #79
Normille wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is positively Orwellian. We've already seen many examples of how pwople's phone data has been used in prosecutions. How long before someone is taken to court for an un-PC remark which they made in the [supposed] privacy of their own home, but which was then picked up by their Alexa, transcribed at Amazon HQ and then reported to the authorities as a "hate crime"? I know using the phrase "virtue signalling" t…

> I know using the phrase "virtue signalling" tends to merit a bucket load of downvotes here on HN. Perhaps because it is an unfalsifiable claim. If someone does something that they think is good, and someone else notices, were they "virtue signalling"? In the case of public figures, especially legislators, many of their actions are broadcast to the public, so condemning "virtue signalling" is like condemning virtue…

I think it becomes "virtue signalling" when you go beyond acceptance of difference and enshrinement of equality, to the point where you actually seem to be suggesting that rights and feelings of the minority sections of society which you are trying to protect, trump* those of the majority.

*no pun intended.

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#87

Post by mttddd »

I dont feel particularly strongly one way or another on the encryption debate but everyone always points at the fact that crimes like child exploitation have existed for forever or that bad actors will just move to encrypted platforms. That ignores the fact that 1. things like Facebook are still relatively new and greatly enable these bad actors and 2. as the times article presents these platforms report a shit ton of this stuff so while I am sure there are plenty of bad actors moving to say signal there are plenty of others who aren't.

It will be interesting to see how things play out though since section 230 reform seems pretty bi partisan. While that doesnt necessarily mean the reform needs to address encryption I would be surprised if it doesn't

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#88

Post by coolspot »

feanaro wrote: post #30

The US constitution should be amended with a right to encryption, making laws such as this one impossible. This is the only long-term way out of this mess.

It didn’t work with right to bear arms. You can’t bear arms in NY or CA because local law says so.

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#89

Post by dane-pgp »

Normille wrote: post #86
dane-pgp wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know using the phrase "virtue signalling" tends to merit a bucket load of downvotes here on HN. Perhaps because it is an unfalsifiable claim. If someone does something that they think is good, and someone else notices, were they "virtue signalling"? In the case of public figures, especially legislators, many of their actions are broadcast to the public, so condemning "virtue signalling" is like condemning virtue…

I think it becomes "virtue signalling" when you go beyond acceptance of difference and enshrinement of equality, to the point where you actually seem to be suggesting that rights and feelings of the minority sections of society which you are trying to protect, trump* those of the majority. *no pun intended.

If you think that these legislators are being disingenuous and are hiding a conscious aim of trying to hurt people in majority groups then perhaps we need a new term like "virtue washing", i.e. using empathy for one group to mask a harmful agenda against a different group.

I personally don't believe that most supporters of such policies are consciously motivated by a desire to harm those in majority groups, as many of these supporters are themselves in majority groups. They probably just don't think that the policies will affect them, or realise that the policies could backfire and be used against minorities.

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#90

Post by Thorentis »

leto_ii wrote: post #48
Thorentis wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think heirarchy is a natural human inclination. It's observed in every part of the animal kingdom. But it is possible to simultaneously have hierarchy and autonomy at the lowest level. Subsidiarity and distributism are the only things I am convinced will work. Every other endeavour ends up being a free-for-all (that ultimately is self destructive) or a dictorship (that eventually implodes).

> I think heirarchy is a natural human inclination. It's observed in every part of the animal kingdom. I have two main objections to this line of thinking: 1. Even if a tendency or behavior can occur in "nature", that doesn't necessarily make it correct. By that measure murder, infanticide, rape etc. should also be considered acceptable since they occur in nature (both with humans and animals). 2. If you take a look…

1. Yes, agree, but this just depends on your opinion of what is "correct". Nature selects for survival, not correctness. I think rigid hierarchy is more advantageous for overall survival, but I am not advocating for that. I think there is something significant about the fact that humans almost always tend towards hierarchy (Lord of the Flies illustrates this).

2. I agree that large scale beauracracies are not in the best interests of humanity. I would argue for hierarchy, with less power the higher up the chain you go. E.g. Local governments should have more power than federal/national governments. But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a national government.

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