Workers Leaving the Googleplex • Hacker News Board

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#311

Post by bane » Sat, Apr 30, 2011, 6:55 PM UTC

blahedo wrote: post #289

bane wrote: post #178

I don't think he understands how contractors work (Google didn't hire you you git, Google contracted your company and your company placed you there to fill the contract) or hourly labor works (you don't get privileges or benefits), so he turns it into a ridiculous conspiracy. Breaking news! Google has hourly employees! - You don't say?! Google has contractors! - Really?! Let's explore the narcissistic exploration of…

Downvoted because of the ad hominem attacks; the author did not "secretly" videotape anyone, he asked his supervisor's permission first . Furthermore, he never said he resented the fact that his red (contractor) badge didn't give him full company privileges; rather he was documenting how many of them he did get to contrast them with the lack of privileges of the yellow (also contractor?) badges.

First apologies for the ad hominem attacks, and thanks for calling me out on them. It's shoddy thinking that belongs more on a Fox opinion show than on HN.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2501121

Second, Thanks also for providing an explanation for your downvote. I'm one of the few that believe a comment should be required for an upvote on HN because there are simply too many reasonable comments that get slammed without explanation (not saying my comment was unreasonable, just applauding your comment in response).

Third, I disagree with you. Even on a plain scan of the page, the very first thing he has up there is one of the videos he was supposed to turn in before termination that he mysteriously:

a) brought home, which wasn't his property

b) couldn't find upon request

That opens the piece as disingenuous and the rest follows from there.

The entire piece reads as a cry for attention which of course we are all giving him.

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#312

Post by lukeschlather » Sat, Apr 30, 2011, 6:56 PM UTC

JabavuAdams wrote: post #140

exit wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

advocating a self interested "keep your job, stupid" perspective is very much siding in favor of perpetuating the system

I am advocating a "keep your job, so you can continue the investigation, stupid" perspective. I thought that was clear.

Personally, what I got from that statement was that the author didn't think the issue was serious enough to pursue the investigation, and is an honest person so didn't feel it necessary to conceal his intent.

Google totally made the wrong call here, because as you say, someone who was looking to write a deep, hard-hitting muckraking piece probably would have lied.

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#313

Post by yanw » Sat, Apr 30, 2011, 6:58 PM UTC

neilk wrote: post #296

kstenerud wrote: post #200

Large companies work by inertia. Google is actually more agile for its size, but it's still a big company and ruled by inertia. In a large company, the majority of people don't know each other, and don't communicate on a daily basis. This means that things of interest get passed from person to person, usually by email, and so the original intent of the message tends to get lost due to the 3rd or 4th reader having no…

I think you are wrong in your assertion that "it takes a lot to rile up a company". It takes very little, as you can see from his story. Just pointing out blindingly obvious facts of privilege, race, and class can cause large companies to shit themselves. That's the point. You see his statements as passive-aggressive. They aren't. Passive-aggressive is something like "I respect your right to your opinion, no matter h…

The credibility of the story isn't the issue, the issue is it's sensationalist nature

These are the contract workers of a company that was hired by Google and as it is typical of contract workers and low wage jobs they are mostly (and sadly) minorities.

They don't have access to Google's perks because they are not Google employees, their paychecks and amenities are taken cared of by their contractors.

Security personnel get involved when people are snooping around company grounds this is all procedural, lets not take this stuff out of perspective.

Edit:

@neilk: there is nothing wrong going on. There are full time 401k employees and temp/contract low wage ones the author is representing it as if he uncovered a wrongdoing and was stopped from investigating it which is delusional.

Edit 2:

@neilk: It could be because their book scanning project is the subject of court cases and lawsuits and an overall sensitive project that some of it's inner workings they prefer to keep hidden, or maybe because he's not a Google employee and they weren't certain of his intentions so they played it safe, or because it's not the most glamorous part of their business, or a thousand other justifications, but as you mentioned it's all within their right.

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#314

Post by KirinDave » Sat, Apr 30, 2011, 6:58 PM UTC

yanw wrote: post #262

dspeyer wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're getting a little mixed up. People with red badges (like the author) are contractors. The article is about people with yellow badges, who receive far fewer perquisites and are kept separate from the general googler population. Who are the people with yellow badges? The author never found out. And Google does not appear to have made the information public.

They might be contracted by another company with shittier terms. And Google doesn't have to make it's inner workings public.

No, they don't. But things have a way of squeaking out anyways. For better or worse, Google bears the burden of being characterized as a geek Shangri-La; where justice and intelligence reign supreme and everyone gets richer.

Is it fair? No. But Google's used that perception a lot in the past and their justifiably worried about losing that good reputation, given their increasing difficulties with retention and hiring.

A scandal about 3rd class workers with untouchable status is the last thing Google needs right now. They should have handled this better.

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#315

Post by lotharbot » Sat, Apr 30, 2011, 7:01 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #263

marshray wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying there hasn't been a significant anti-labor campaign the last 40 years? Take a look at attitudes towards American Labor in the 50s-60s and now. Big difference, right? Sure there's a difference, but I wouldn't attribute even half of that difference to some kind of vast propaganda campaign.

You've got most of the working class opposed to the idea of organized labor during a period of time when working class salaries have stagnated and shrunk relative to baseline inflation, and definitely shrunk relative to household costs like healthcare and gasoline. Yeah, I'm sure they're against it because they're scholars of austrian economics. They probably read Hayek to their kids when they get home from their shi…

> working class salaries have stagnated and shrunk relative to baseline inflation, and definitely shrunk relative to household costs like healthcare and gasoline.

The way "baseline inflation" is measured (through the CPI) involves a growing baseline. Salaries/incomes have stagnated relative to that not-really-a-baseline, but that's not really a meaningful way to look at working class economics.

I know yummyfajitas has challenged you on this point in the past, and I don't recall seeing you ever answer it, so I'm going to repeat it: over the time period in question, can you produce any reasonable list of "household costs" under which working class families now are not better off than working class families in the 1960s?

Even gas prices aren't very far outside the norm. In 1960 a gallon of gas was 31 cents and the "national wage index" was right around 4000; at the start of this year a gallon of gas was $3.09, and the most recent NWI data I can find (2009) was just over 40,000. This summer's run-up is not out of line with past fluctuations.

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#316

Post by Unseelie » Sat, Apr 30, 2011, 7:05 PM UTC

exit wrote: post #220

bane wrote: post #178

I don't think he understands how contractors work (Google didn't hire you you git, Google contracted your company and your company placed you there to fill the contract) or hourly labor works (you don't get privileges or benefits), so he turns it into a ridiculous conspiracy. Breaking news! Google has hourly employees! - You don't say?! Google has contractors! - Really?! Let's explore the narcissistic exploration of…

> And yes, please keep this post up so other companies know not to hire you either. i think this is an interesting common characteristic of attacks on the articles author - the direct or subtle reminder that he failed to act in his own self interest vis a vis employment. this is how capitalists want us to frame everything - in terms of narrow self interest.

Its how "they" work, whether or not "they" are capitalists, if they're in a capitalist system.

Oh, paranoia! Point being, it isn't that the people are capitalists, just that the culture allows self interest based threats...

I may be letting paranoia get my goat, but it seems to me that lots of people are coming down horribly heavily on this blog post, and I wonder if its some form of a pr case being built against the poster.

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#317

Post by RandyHelzerman » Sat, Apr 30, 2011, 7:06 PM UTC

"Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm really awfuly glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able …"

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#318

Post by neilk » Sat, Apr 30, 2011, 7:07 PM UTC

yanw wrote: post #313

neilk wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are wrong in your assertion that "it takes a lot to rile up a company". It takes very little, as you can see from his story. Just pointing out blindingly obvious facts of privilege, race, and class can cause large companies to shit themselves. That's the point. You see his statements as passive-aggressive. They aren't. Passive-aggressive is something like "I respect your right to your opinion, no matter h…

The credibility of the story isn't the issue, the issue is it's sensationalist nature These are the contract workers of a company that was hired by Google and as it is typical of contract workers and low wage jobs they are mostly (and sadly) minorities. They don't have access to Google's perks because they are not Google employees, their paychecks and amenities are taken cared of by their contractors. Security person…

If this is a typical arrangement that companies often make, why is it sensational?

@yanw: I agree there's nothing wrong going on, and everyone is within their rights. What's wrong with taking a picture of it? And before you reply that all photography on campus is supposed to be discouraged, you're right, but in practice nobody enforces that policy if you're taking pictures of other parts of Google. There are tons of photos on Flickr.

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#319

Post by yanw » Sat, Apr 30, 2011, 7:08 PM UTC

neilk wrote: post #300

I used to work at Google and the "class system" was something that grated on me from time to time. I didn't know any yellow badge folks myself, and was ignorant of their existence, just as the article mentions. But red badges (contractors) are ubiquitous. In one case they fired all the QA contractors and made them reapply for their own jobs -- we're talking about people who had deep knowledge of certain projects, who…

For crying out loud, it's not a "class system" it's company hierarchy.

Contract workers are not employees they are temporary hired hands they get fired and reallocated on company whim for company purposes, that is the nature of their jobs, they are easier to fire and hire than full time 401k employees. Not everyone gets the company car home with them.

What disturbs me is that you keep pointing to the fact that they are mostly minorities as if Google deliberately chose minority workers for these jobs, the sad fact is that these low end jobs are typically occupied by minorities.

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#320

Post by jarin » Sat, Apr 30, 2011, 7:08 PM UTC

jnhnum1 wrote: post #243

lutorm wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, since Schmidt was actually running Google when this incident happened, it would seem to be perfectly applicable. Or are you saying that Schmidt only meant it for others and not for Google itself?

I believe Schmidt's statement was about activities online .

I believe his statement also applied to things like your friends uploading embarrassing pictures of you and things like that, which is essentially paralleled here.