New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression • Hacker News Board

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#61

Post by smcleod » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 11:19 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #5

I'm curious if we have insights into whether psychedelics' mental health effects work by changing something by a direct chemical interaction, or if they work by just encouraging the patient to rewire their own brain while tripping. If e.g. you administered psychedelics on someone in an induced coma, would you see the same benefit?

For me, it made me lose my "ego" to a certain extent during the experiences, I was able to feel some (what I now know are very important) emotions I was struggling to feel or accept for many, many years after trying many different types of therapy and medicines.

Once I was able to feel and confront those emotions and discover what had me so wound up, upset and sad - I was finally able to start the process of healing.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#62

Post by thrwn_frthr_awy » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 11:19 PM UTC

monoideism wrote: post #18

thrwn_frthr_awy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried ketamine? I suffered from major depression for years and it was the only thing that helped me. It was like flipping a switch.

Did you find a doctor, or otherwise? I have severe chronic pain, and resulting depression that affects my pain perception, and am interested in trying this route.

Yes, I did it through my psychiatrist along with talk therapy and traditional anti-meds. I had been doing the others before, but adding the ketamine was life changing for me.

It’s a shame too. I had the best health care option from one of the largest public tech companies and I had to pay $450 out of pocket, twice a week for four weeks, and then moving down to every other week. This is on top of $6k they took out of my salary over the year.

It is extremely frustrating the amount of basic mental health care needs, which I believe depression is, that are simply out of reach for most of Americans.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#63

Post by jb_s » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 11:20 PM UTC

ckosidows wrote: post #31

As hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt…

If depression really is a "software" rather than a "hardware" issue that makes it much harder to solve right?

You can't just toggle some biochemical switches and restore normal function.

But if you can rewire the software in just the right way then maybe

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#64

Post by newbie789 » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 11:20 PM UTC

This is fascinating. I'm glad that they're allowing psychedelics for certain types of treatment, but I hope that the choices open up further than psilocybin.

Back in my teenage years I took pretty much every psychedelic I could access, and trip-sat (like babysitting) for about two dozen of my friends over the course of a few years. I found in tripsitting that psilocybin was among the more difficult to manage psychedelics, especially for first-timers. I found that 2C-B/E, DOC and LSD were the best-tolerated substances among people that weren't "psychonaut veterans."

This is purely anecdotal and in no way meant to imply that I know what the hell I'm talking about. I only bring it up as a thought that popped into my head relating to the use of psychedelic drugs in therapy.

Also, no. I do not know where to get any of this stuff anymore. Haven't known for over a decade.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#65

Post by ummonk » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 11:21 PM UTC

ckosidows wrote: post #31

As hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt…

You’re describing situational depression. A lot of people have chronic depression, where he only hope for managing the depression involves pharmaceuticals.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#66

Post by outime » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 11:22 PM UTC

I read "How to change your mind" last year and I tried this. It worked very well.

As many studies indicate, it temporarily disables/decreases DMN (among other effects) which is exactly what a depressed person would need: break the vicious self-destructive circle. Only then I could start making hard but necessary decisions and change my life completely. Depression is nowhere to be seen but that's because I actually changed things and didn't become complacent.

I'd not recommend to do it without spending a good time doing research. The aforementioned book is a great resource.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#67

Post by throwaway17824 » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 11:25 PM UTC

rland wrote: post #55

ckosidows wrote: post #31

As hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt…

I completely agree. The structure of our society actively deprives people from human connection which is essential to happiness. Individuals do suffer from depression at different rates, but it pops up the same way popcorn pops when you turn the heat on. The direct cause is the atomization of modern life, not some chemical imbalance in the brain. The reason people treat depression as an individual problem to be addre…

While lack of human connection can be one cause or contributing factor for depression in individual cases, and may make a lot of people "depressed" in the informal coloquial sense, the notion that major depressive disorder across the spectrum and across society is singularly caused by lack of human interaction (or singularly caused by anything at all) is not a notion evidenced by any literature on depression I'm aware of, and is not a notion espoused by any of mental health professionals I've encountered who routinely successfully treat people with depression.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#68

Post by goldenkey » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 11:26 PM UTC

monoideism wrote: post #46

goldenkey wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Arizona, with a chronic pain doctor, I was able to get pure ketamine liquid infusion via IV for 3-4 hours, while I listened to music. Felt like rebirth. My spinal pain was significantly decreased for the next few weeks, and my mood was ecstatic. Like the mushrooms though, it is short-lived. The doctor liked prescribing it because it is an NMDA agonist and decreased my opioid tolerance quite a bit, also helps with…

Thank you. I've had a very bad experience w/anesthesia so am always nervous while dealing with anything of that nature. Wonder if that predisposes me to a bad trip. Not sure that would be worth it for just 2 weeks of relief. Also not sure I'd be able to find any such doctor near me. Probably health care providers are much more open minded out West than it is here.

The nice thing about ketamine is that it is a sedative. I've done LSD, Mushrooms, and DMT. Ketamine is the most enjoyable and least risky in my opinion, due to its sedative nature. The doctors usually give an anti-anxiety drug before starting the infusion, a benzodiazepine such as midazolam. As I did more infusions, we increased the ketamine dose and decreased the midazolam. Find a good doctor and work with them. Ketamine is a really wonderful substance for pain and depression.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#69

Post by jolmg » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 11:26 PM UTC

hristov wrote: post #60

jolmg wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so sugar pill placebo might not correctly show the placebo effect The lack of good placebo options seems to be why they chose not to have a placebo. The paper mentions: > Although placebo and active treatment controlled designs are widely used in therapeutic trials, they too have limitations owing to the highly discriminable effects of psilocybin.

That seems a bit of copout though. Yes, sugar pill will not have a as high placebo effect but it is still useful as setting a lower bound on the placebo effect.

Wouldn't it complicate things by introducing a new variable to consider, i.e. how gullible is each participant / how affected were they by the placebo? For what it's worth, it seems more useful to not have that variable. That way, if the effect was from the psilocybin acting as placebo, at least you know they were all affected equally. There were too few participants too. Having a control group with a placebo would make the experimental sample even smaller.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#70

Post by PragmaticPulp » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 11:27 PM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #54

Full disclosure, I have severe clinical depression. Multiple comments here have asked for double blind placebo trials. But you can't really do that with something psycho active, at least not ethically. I can appreciate wanting high standards, but that doesn't mean banning everything that doesn't fit the neat mold we use in other cases. Also, suicide is the leading cause of death for multiple age/sex demographic group…

> Multiple comments here have asked for double blind placebo trials. But you can't really do that with something psycho active, at least not ethically.

There are no ethical barriers to including a control group.

The idea that double-blind, placebo-controlled trials are impossible with psychoactive medication is a strawman argument, because obviously we can still have a control group.

The control group doesn't even need to receive placebo. In a study like this one, they could have easily and ethically had one group receive therapy and a second group receive therapy plus mushrooms. Or the first group could have received therapy plus traditional SSRIs.

The placebo response rate in antidepressant studies is extraordinarily high. There is no good reason to omit a control group in studies like these, other than perhaps if the researchers were too underfunded to make it work.