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DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

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Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#71

Post by mathw »

pjmlp wrote: post #45
mhd wrote: post #40

It also seems to combine the worst of both platforms: Apps. Is there any OSDEV work that goes towards a more integrated, component-based architecture? As sad as it seems, Unix tools & pipes seems to be the most successful and enduring attempt in that direction. Systems doing that on a language basis seem mostly dead (Lisps, Smalltalks, Oberons), component architecture isn't doing much (OpenDoc as the prime example, C…

Component architecture is everywhere on the desktops, just not on those using UNIX text terminals. COM has been the underlying driving technology of Windows since Vista, where the Windows team took the Longhorn .NET ideas and redid them with COM, since then we got COM improved as WinRT/UWP. Which despite the common mix with the store (blame marketing teams), is what to this day most Windows 10 APIs make use of, and n…

gRPC is not a CORBA equivalent though. Was CORBA ever intended for APIs operating over IP networks?

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#72

Post by pjmlp »

72deluxe wrote: post #70
pjmlp wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Component architecture is everywhere on the desktops, just not on those using UNIX text terminals. COM has been the underlying driving technology of Windows since Vista, where the Windows team took the Longhorn .NET ideas and redid them with COM, since then we got COM improved as WinRT/UWP. Which despite the common mix with the store (blame marketing teams), is what to this day most Windows 10 APIs make use of, and n…

Are you talking about Component Object Model, COM? If so, that predates Vista by many Windows releases.

Of course it predates Vista.

"Windows team took the Longhorn .NET ideas and redid them with COM"

Nowhere did I wrote that Vista introduced COM.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#73

Post by pjmlp »

mathw wrote: post #71
pjmlp wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Component architecture is everywhere on the desktops, just not on those using UNIX text terminals. COM has been the underlying driving technology of Windows since Vista, where the Windows team took the Longhorn .NET ideas and redid them with COM, since then we got COM improved as WinRT/UWP. Which despite the common mix with the store (blame marketing teams), is what to this day most Windows 10 APIs make use of, and n…

gRPC is not a CORBA equivalent though. Was CORBA ever intended for APIs operating over IP networks?

Yes, naturally. How do you think we were using it in the 2000?

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#74

Post by pjmlp »

baybal2 wrote: post #68
pjmlp wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I like to bash C, even Microsoft was forced to reconsider their position and latest MSVC now supports C11 and C17, and UNIX kernels won't ever use anything else. So anyone serious about OS development should know it, regardless of their opinion towards the language. As for GObject, there are bindings for almost any relevant language.

You have my solidarity, but I do not see C having a resurgence. Can share horror stories of expensive hires with MSc/PhD degrees, and years of experience having a fright of their lifetime when they see real world C.

So are you planning to rewrite all those UNIX clones in something else?

Azure Sphere, Microsoft's paragon of IoT security, only allows for C.

Those expensive MSc/PhD should just complain to their universities for not providing a proper systems programming classes.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#75

Post by sylvain_kerkour »

Hi, even if it's very early, congrats for starting such an ambitious project!

Instead of aiming the moon today, I may suggest to focus on only one thing and do it very well now.

My suggestion is to target mobile / desktop (convergent) linux. The story today is not good, and you seems to have achieved some interesting things with your UI shell that may take years to achieve with the usual linux technologies: Gnome or KDE.

You may even be able to quickly make a business by selling pre-flashed linux devices like raspberry pis, pinephones, pinebooks... with your beautiful and easy to use UI.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#77

Post by baybal2 »

pjmlp wrote: post #74
baybal2 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have my solidarity, but I do not see C having a resurgence. Can share horror stories of expensive hires with MSc/PhD degrees, and years of experience having a fright of their lifetime when they see real world C.

So are you planning to rewrite all those UNIX clones in something else? Azure Sphere, Microsoft's paragon of IoT security, only allows for C. Those expensive MSc/PhD should just complain to their universities for not providing a proper systems programming classes.

I clearly need people who can do above helloworld level in C.

For many places, there are clearly no alternative to C.

The humongous open codebase of high quality C code, exceeding every other language, is also not going anywhere.

The situation is, shortly speaking, "no alternative to doing it in C, but we cannot do it in C because of some purely non-technical constraint." And the situation is very common I feel.

Chipmakers with billions of cash free to throw on RnD can't make any passable Linux kernel work. Google Chrome team must be employing best C++ hackers on the market, and yet.... and the story goes on like this.

The relative overabundance of webdev/java people hides the the fact that we are not only not gaining developers in conventional programming, but losing them fast to age, career change, or them returning back to home countries in case of labour migrants.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#78

Post by ratww »

est31 wrote: post #43
pengaru wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's like complaining that the initial Linux release doesn't support x86... Linus didn't write it for x86 originally. What the hell is this nonsense? Linus was working on a terminal program for his 386 with native x86 task switching and that's the origin story of Linux. It's clearly recorded on the wikipedia page for the kernel, and he speaks to this in Just For Fun IIRC.

Hmmm I misremembered it then. Thanks for pointing this out. My general point still stands though. His initial Linux announcement E-Mail has this line: > It is NOT portable (uses 386 task switching etc), and it probably never will support anything other than AT-harddisks, as that's all I have :-(. So it wasn't very portable at the start. If you complained about it not being portable to different arches (idk which one…

If anything Linus was extra-humble when announcing it, kind of the opposite of what's going on here. This kind of marketing copy would be appropriate for a mature product, as it is it rubs some people the wrong way.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#79

Post by pjmlp »

baybal2 wrote: post #77
pjmlp wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are you planning to rewrite all those UNIX clones in something else? Azure Sphere, Microsoft's paragon of IoT security, only allows for C. Those expensive MSc/PhD should just complain to their universities for not providing a proper systems programming classes.

I clearly need people who can do above helloworld level in C. For many places, there are clearly no alternative to C. The humongous open codebase of high quality C code, exceeding every other language, is also not going anywhere. The situation is, shortly speaking, "no alternative to doing it in C, but we cannot do it in C because of some purely non-technical constraint." And the situation is very common I feel. Chip…

Those Java people also need to be at home with the low level concepts, if they are to do any usable work from what is coming from Panama.

Likewise those Webdevs might just brush up their skills for WebAssembly.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if one is using D, Rust, Swift, Java, C#, Rust, C++, Zig, FreePascal, CUDA, Open... instead of C.

The system programming concepts are the same, and it all boils down to education.

As for lousy candidates, I get them in any language.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#80

Post by stragies »

happymellon wrote: post #49
hardwaresofton wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The write-once-run-everywhere promise -- Flutter is really good at multi-platform support because it works at the pixel level. So in a browser/web context, all you need (roughly) is a canvas, and to compile the relevant Dart to JS and you're off to the races.

But thats just Flutter, and it can already run on Linux. What is the benefit of Fuchia?

Possibility to (re-)introduce binary_only, closed_source hw driver modules for the fuchsia kernel? And still get to use all the goodie from GPL userland.
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