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DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

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Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#41

Post by ploxiln »

est31 wrote: post #26
skavi wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These guys used to be on the Fuchsia subreddit fairly frequently. They were definitely far from experienced or professional. IIRC, the founder is very young and was very much a beginner to OS development.

Usually hn is very positive towards young folks doing stuff, and doesn't measure it by the bar that older people get measured by. Why is this different this time? Also even then, you'll probably find people doing mistakes, committing hacks, etc all the time. It's like complaining that the initial Linux release doesn't support x86... Linus didn't write it for x86 originally.

I think the skepticism and criticism of this project is reasonable, given the marketing. Look at it: https://dahliaos.io/

> a modern, secure, lightweight and responsive operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

The initial announcement and first couple years of development of linux had no logo or website or anything. Let's compare:

> a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones

I usually just move on without comment ... but I'm kinda annoyed by the trend of the "npm generation" to have all this slick marketing bluster for experimental "just for learning" projects. Go ahead and compare to https://gcc.gnu.org/ - much less slick, much less marketing bluster, much more important project.

This dahliaOS has apparently recently joined the Open Invention Network "joining the likes of Google, IBM, SpaceX, Huawei, Microsoft, Yamaha, Honda, System76, GNOME, Daimler" and is accepting donations. Meanwhile, the founder says:

> A lot of my stuff is learning about kernel development and is mostly what I do. I do a lot with porting devices to fuchsia, and tinkering with the zircon kernel. Thats mostly it.

If there was just a repo and the readme just said that, I don't think there would be any skepticism and criticism here, just some interest and encouragement. But with all this slick marketing, skepticism and criticism is a healthy balance.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#43

Post by est31 »

pengaru wrote: post #33
est31 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually hn is very positive towards young folks doing stuff, and doesn't measure it by the bar that older people get measured by. Why is this different this time? Also even then, you'll probably find people doing mistakes, committing hacks, etc all the time. It's like complaining that the initial Linux release doesn't support x86... Linus didn't write it for x86 originally.

> It's like complaining that the initial Linux release doesn't support x86... Linus didn't write it for x86 originally. What the hell is this nonsense? Linus was working on a terminal program for his 386 with native x86 task switching and that's the origin story of Linux. It's clearly recorded on the wikipedia page for the kernel, and he speaks to this in Just For Fun IIRC.

Hmmm I misremembered it then. Thanks for pointing this out.

My general point still stands though. His initial Linux announcement E-Mail has this line:

> It is NOT portable (uses 386 task switching etc), and it probably never will support anything other than AT-harddisks, as that's all I have :-(.

So it wasn't very portable at the start. If you complained about it not being portable to different arches (idk which one was available at that time? SPARC? MIPS?), it would have been unfair. Everyone has to start somewhere.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#44

Post by nmcain »

ploxiln wrote: post #41
est31 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually hn is very positive towards young folks doing stuff, and doesn't measure it by the bar that older people get measured by. Why is this different this time? Also even then, you'll probably find people doing mistakes, committing hacks, etc all the time. It's like complaining that the initial Linux release doesn't support x86... Linus didn't write it for x86 originally.

I think the skepticism and criticism of this project is reasonable, given the marketing. Look at it: https://dahliaos.io/ > a modern, secure, lightweight and responsive operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS The initial announcement and first couple years of development of linux had no logo or website or anything. Let's compare: > a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and pro…

That's perfectly understandable, I even feel that I went a little too "slick marketing" with the website, but I have extremely high, maybe even too high goals for the project.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#45

Post by pjmlp »

mhd wrote: post #40

It also seems to combine the worst of both platforms: Apps. Is there any OSDEV work that goes towards a more integrated, component-based architecture? As sad as it seems, Unix tools & pipes seems to be the most successful and enduring attempt in that direction. Systems doing that on a language basis seem mostly dead (Lisps, Smalltalks, Oberons), component architecture isn't doing much (OpenDoc as the prime example, C…

Component architecture is everywhere on the desktops, just not on those using UNIX text terminals.

COM has been the underlying driving technology of Windows since Vista, where the Windows team took the Longhorn .NET ideas and redid them with COM, since then we got COM improved as WinRT/UWP. Which despite the common mix with the store (blame marketing teams), is what to this day most Windows 10 APIs make use of, and now even React Native for Windows is built on top of.

On Apple side, we have XPC being increasingly used, while Android uses a mix Binder and Activities, also the same IPC mechanism powering Treble based drivers.

XFCE, GNOME and KDE make heavy use of DBUS.

Then I laugh of joy with hype around gRPC, as everyone is just rediscovering CORBA.

Lisps, Smalltalks, Oberons ideas can be replicated on top of those component stacks, which is what Powershell actually does to certain extent on Windows.

The tools are there, learn to use them Luke.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#46

Post by nmcain »

hans_castorp wrote: post #42

How can they release it under the Apache license (which I applaud) if they use the Linux kernel which is GPL- I always thought those two licenses are incompatible (because of the restrictiveness of the GPL)

The builds are not neccessarily licensed, Fuchsia is Apache, and our source is Apache, I'm not quite sure legally about the final product of it. The underlying Linux system is licensed under various licenses, which are provided with the system. We release the GPL bits under the GPL, and the Apache bits under Apache 2.0, in addition to the other third party components which have miscellaneous licenses.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#47

Post by nmcain »

mhd wrote: post #40

It also seems to combine the worst of both platforms: Apps. Is there any OSDEV work that goes towards a more integrated, component-based architecture? As sad as it seems, Unix tools & pipes seems to be the most successful and enduring attempt in that direction. Systems doing that on a language basis seem mostly dead (Lisps, Smalltalks, Oberons), component architecture isn't doing much (OpenDoc as the prime example, C…

We initially experimented with almost exactly what was described here, but it lacked one thing and that was third party expandablility. Sadly, I see no way for common and modern apps in their current form to be integrated into anything other than the traditional application format. If this changes, I hope to be the first to jump on board and get the ball rolling.

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#48

Post by thdolskfjtjd »

mhd wrote: post #40

It also seems to combine the worst of both platforms: Apps. Is there any OSDEV work that goes towards a more integrated, component-based architecture? As sad as it seems, Unix tools & pipes seems to be the most successful and enduring attempt in that direction. Systems doing that on a language basis seem mostly dead (Lisps, Smalltalks, Oberons), component architecture isn't doing much (OpenDoc as the prime example, C…

What does the "unix"ness of stuff have to do with the lack of popularity of linux as a market? Blaming a technical problem for what is actually social does nothing positive for anyone. Certainly, "linux" itself as a free platform is not necessary for liberation, let alone the litany of other brands you mentioned. Linux is unpopular for many, many other reasons than avoiding technical issues.

If "unix" is considered a success, I'm giving up on coding. What's the point? People will just gravitate towards brand loyalty regardless of the technical underpinnings.

When will it implement plan9's bind?

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#49

Post by happymellon »

hardwaresofton wrote: post #12
ponderingfish wrote: post #8

Sorry I don't get the USP of this. Can someone explain what's the best of both worlds that is being offered here? Thanks!

The write-once-run-everywhere promise -- Flutter is really good at multi-platform support because it works at the pixel level. So in a browser/web context, all you need (roughly) is a canvas, and to compile the relevant Dart to JS and you're off to the races.

But thats just Flutter, and it can already run on Linux. What is the benefit of Fuchia?

Re: DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS

#50

Post by 3np »

nmcain wrote: post #44
ploxiln wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the skepticism and criticism of this project is reasonable, given the marketing. Look at it: https://dahliaos.io/ > a modern, secure, lightweight and responsive operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linux and Fuchsia OS The initial announcement and first couple years of development of linux had no logo or website or anything. Let's compare: > a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and pro…

That's perfectly understandable, I even feel that I went a little too "slick marketing" with the website, but I have extremely high, maybe even too high goals for the project.

It's fine to have high (even unrealistic!) goals, but IMO you're doing your project a disservice by presenting it as if the future's already here.

I think it's a really interesting project but it's not an honest presentation (not in an exceptional way, it seems to be an existing trend in startup culture so it's understandable that people replicate it).

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