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Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

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Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#181
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Anyplace that people want to live should ..." ... democratically decide their own course of action with regard to housing, zoning, etc.

There's the view that its an intrusion on personal liberty and choice. Should they also democratically decide what car you should drive? What to name your kids? Democracy is another kind of oppression, when taken too far.

"Should they also democratically decide what car you should drive?"

It depends. Most western european countries have fairly strict regulations on maintenance, road-worthiness, emissions and sound. Here in California we have relatively strict emissions regulations.

These regulations were, essentially, decided by a democratic process. Presumably if they attempted to regulate color it would fail at the polls.

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#182

Anecdotally, I just moved from the Bay Area to Asheville and am taking my tech job with me. So, could be true... Real estate there is crazy right now. The local agents say houses have been selling very quickly, often sight unseen to California buyers.

Hello fellow Asheville-area resident! I'm actually really surprised to hear that. NC, and the southeast in general has traditionally been a pretty hard sell for Californians, from a cultural perspective at least. New Yorkers and Floridians have been colonizing the area for ages though, so figures that Californians would catch on eventually. I made the move back to NC after 5 years in Seattle, and don't regret it one bit.

Anyhow, welcome to the area! The techie / startup scene here is pretty small, but it's good folk and a tight community.

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, people in "flyover country" have been hearing the same sorts of disses for decades

I used to cringe with the term “flyover country”. Now I embrace it. I even promote it. The less enticing I make my area seem to an outsider, the less likely they will try to move here and ruin it.

There's nothing to do here, you're isolated, there's no culture, it's completely boring, and the people are so intolerant. Stay on the coasts!

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#184
post #145

I wonder when the reverse will happen. As rents in SF dive, will people that were force to outlying parts of the Bay Area return? Will younger LGBT folk be able to afford to live in/near the Castro? Will more people _not_ in tech be able to live here? SF has felt like such a one-industry town for quite a while, and that can mute some of the richness and diversity that normally makes cities interesting (and perhaps mo…

For about 30 years cities were relatively undesirable places to live in for the average person. The cities that young people have flocked to in the last decade or so are designed and developed more like large scale open shopping malls than the cities of the 70s and 80s.

The closest comparison to what's happening now was "White flight", a largely racist reaction to the civil rights movement involving increased protests and riots in cities. White flight changed many cities in the 50/60s, in particular Cleveland, Oakland and Detroit. These cities only started to see any kind of revival in the tail end of the last economic boom. For decades cities struggled with violent crime, racial tensions, poor infrastructure, etc.

What we're seeing is a much larger scale than that and will likely change cities for decades to come. In the shopping mall era of cities you live in cities because you are close to work and close to restaurants, bars and other things to do. And cities feel remarkably safe. Nearly every tech person who "loves cities!" today would feel very uncomfortable in SF or NYC of the 1970s.

Virtually every one I know in a major metro is considering leaving because: jobs no longer require being there, pandemic has destroyed much of the food and small business scene, and cities are becoming visibly less safe. The people are moving to other areas and they are very often looking to purchase a home rather than rent (since what you can get for the same mortgage as your current rent is typically an order of magnitude more space). This means they won't be coming back soon. This will cause a feedback loop that will continue to force employers to go remote, reduce the number of restaurants and leave cities more vacant and more dangerous.

It means the city will also change very rapidly and be much less attractive, even at a lower price.

But to your point about the Castro: it's precisely because "average" people didn't want to live in SF that marginalized groups found a home there. The Castro in SF, the Village in N YC were places that Engineers didn't want to work and live, so artists and outcasts moved in.

My fear is that this collapse is going to be too extreme and too fast to allow for the creation of this interesting space of possibility that NYC and SF of the 1970-80s was. The collapse of commercial and residential real estate in these areas is going to have consequences that I think are very hard to predict right now.

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#185

I saw a great quote recently that said something like “Everyone loves work from home until you lose a deal to the competition that turned up to your customer in person.” There’s an element of truth to this. Best advice I’ve heard is to say the draw for living in a city may go away but you need to be close. Living in the middle of nowhere isn’t going to look like such a great idea when people start gathering together…

To add on top of that, what about just general travel or business travel?

I could understand moving away from the bay area, but living in a remote town has it's costs. Need to jump on a plane for a business meeting? Well, now you're driving 2 hours to the airport and then connecting to some hub.

I've done it in the past, it adds a ton of friction to travel.

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i just bought 18 acres on the direct border of the Ouachita National Forest in SE Oklahoma for reasons outside the pandemic (i live in Dallas, about 4hrs away). The real estate person said all land is gone within days of listing. They're selling at $7-8k/acre what was $1-2k/acre just a couple years ago. People are flocking to the country side.

I don't think it's a permanent move though. People are buying summer/weekend homes or property which already had constrained supply.

I'm sure there are a combination of factors.

With prices of most assets inflated and lots of money flowing around, land speculation is probably a significant factor.

Lots of folks are probably looking for security but will turn around and sell once things stabilize or they realize that property ownership and living in the country come with responsibilities they're not equipped or willing to handle.

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#187
post #145

I wonder when the reverse will happen. As rents in SF dive, will people that were force to outlying parts of the Bay Area return? Will younger LGBT folk be able to afford to live in/near the Castro? Will more people _not_ in tech be able to live here? SF has felt like such a one-industry town for quite a while, and that can mute some of the richness and diversity that normally makes cities interesting (and perhaps mo…

For about 30 years cities were relatively undesirable places to live in for the average person. The cities that young people have flocked to in the last decade or so are designed and developed more like large scale open shopping malls than the cities of the 70s and 80s. The closest comparison to what's happening now was "White flight", a largely racist reaction to the civil rights movement involving increased protest…

I don't see how your comment is at odds with what you're replying to.

> cities are becoming visibly less safe

Hm, I do not think this is true.

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#188
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another thing I'm curious about is what the distribution will be like. Smooth, across a wide range of places - anywhere with a decent internet connection - or will people follow previously trodden paths to places like Boulder or where I am in Bend, Oregon? There are plenty of towns with lots of outdoor access in Oregon that are cheap because the mill closed. But they are not 'hot' destinations.

if starlink comes online as scheduled then all bets are off. You'll see tech workers on the mountain tops of the Rockies i bet.

I'm not so sure. People like to be around other people, and like minded people. Sure, some will go to really out of the way places, but I'm not so sure about how many will stay, long term.

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#189

Are companies going to start adjusting salaries for people who move (this makes zero sense to me, the value you add most likely doesn’t change because of where you live)? That’s where this gets weird... people move to these better-to-live places and then all the employers decides to pay them less because of location. Then you just push up housing prices with salaries that slowly reset over time to be cost of living a…

>> this makes zero sense to me, the value you add most likely doesn’t change because of where you live Salaries were/are so high because of the limited supply of qualified labour. If they now accept workers from everywhere the supply side constraint just got blown wide open.

Eh.. I think most of the top tech talent in America lives on the West coast or NYC. Sure, might open up to more people - but not "blown wide open."

Re: Tech Workers Take to the Mountains, Bringing Silicon Valley with Them

#190
post #177
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyplace that people want to live should build more housing of all shapes and sizes - and not artificially restrict housing options with zoning.

"Anyplace that people want to live should ..." ... democratically decide their own course of action with regard to housing, zoning, etc.

Exclusionary zoning is basically what they came up with when the Supreme Court decided that you couldn't straight up exclude non-white people.
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