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How I talk to the victims of conspiracy theories

bbc.co.uk

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Re: How I talk to the victims of conspiracy theories

#111

Post by InitialLastName »

LeCow wrote: post #90
InitialLastName wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people are threatening the health and safety of other people (including uninvolved bystanders, not to mention people who disagree with them) based on their beliefs and opinions, does it not approach being your responsibility to do what you can to disavow them of those beliefs?

How does believing in something false threaten someones safety?

If that belief leads you to assault (even just verbally) retail employees for requesting you follow basic hygiene principles in slowing the spread of a pandemic.

Re: How I talk to the victims of conspiracy theories

#112

Post by brlewis »

LeCow wrote: post #90
InitialLastName wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people are threatening the health and safety of other people (including uninvolved bystanders, not to mention people who disagree with them) based on their beliefs and opinions, does it not approach being your responsibility to do what you can to disavow them of those beliefs?

How does believing in something false threaten someones safety?

Merely believing in something false is harmless, but once in a while humans actually act on their beliefs.

Suppose a restaurant employee believes that the requirement to wash hands before returning to work is a hoax by the soap companies in order to sell more soap. If the employee believes this but never acts on it, fine. But if they stop washing their hands before returning to work, that threatens public health.

Re: How I talk to the victims of conspiracy theories

#113

Post by etrautmann »

CyanBird wrote: post #104
kordlessagain wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any data on the form their mind is creating to hold these theories "true"? The form could be factual data (lists of things) supporting or disproving their theory, creative imagery (internally seen things) obscuring what is normally viewed as reality, or perhaps sound or voices in the form of hallucinations (internally heard things). After armchair analyzing this for nearly 4 years, I'm pretty sure Trump i…

> Do you have any data on the form their mind is creating to hold these theories "true" I can't address the rest of the comment, but I can address this True and truth are what the collective believes it is true, you can see this from the Desert Storm invasion based on the "truth" that the Iraqi army was taking babies out of incubators, to the modern idea of Genders being exclusively binary when we have literal Roman…

No - we cannot give up on the idea that objective truths exist. The idea of truth represents an objective reality. We can disagree on what we believe or feel, but a truth can exist even if zero people believe it.

Re: How I talk to the victims of conspiracy theories

#114

Post by Geee »

tyho wrote: post #54
komali2 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone pro-rationality is anti-q. It's probably on the top of HN because people voted for it. The software that runs this website is on GitHub, you can go see for yourself. Or maybe it's the lizard people trying to suppress the truth of q?

But why the intense focus on Q? There is a massive amount of bullshit out there. Why is Q considered more harmful than say 9/11 or Flat Earth conspiracy theories, or any religious beliefs for that matter.

Because it's a meme that spreads like wildfire and turns its victims into zombies. It's infecting massive amounts of people who don't typically believe in conspiracies.

Re: How I talk to the victims of conspiracy theories

#115

Post by sjaak »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #70
sjaak wrote: post #46

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the interesting parallel with religion here. Belief in a deity is also --in some eyes-- totally irrational. It can cause similar harm and sometimes also divides families, e.g. when people want to 'get out': Jehovas witnesses, scientology, ... Let's face it, collectively, we're not as rational as we like to believe.

What if the faith in God was rational? I mean to YOU it doesn't seem rational, but to the faithful it does. I mean one logical, rational argument used is that the universe and life is incredibly complicated, we as "mere" humans cannot create it, and it's incredibly unlikely humans would develop like we did. Therefore, there must be intelligent design behind it. See? Rational and logical thought. Dismissing people who…

If it were rational, it would also be falsifiable.

Let me ask you: what would have to happen for you to rescind your belief?

Also; at the risk of starting a discussion about religion: you haven't developed a logical argument by saying "universe is complicated -> deity". You've only moved the problem of "who or what created X" up one level to the deity. Who created the deity?

Re: How I talk to the victims of conspiracy theories

#116

Post by disease »

ezekg wrote: post #39
LeCow wrote: post #25

I take such an issue with the portrayal of conspiracy theories like this, that is black and white. As with everything, it's that they encompass a range of things. Many times people have called conspiracy on something that's turned out to be true. It's just as anti-science to be extremely sceptical of everything as it is to be extremely susceptible. Some people believe in lizard people, and some think China is trying…

It is kind of interesting to think about how we got here. If you question anything mainstream these days, or try to discuss an alternative viewpoint, the conversation almost always turns vitriol. It's unfortunate, because there have been a lot of "conspiracy theories" that have been shown fully- or partially-true with time, but people seem to be very cult-like in their beliefs, even if they don't truly understand the…

A lot of conspiracy theories are just slightly repackaged white supremacy and anti-Semitism. It's not hard for me to personally to cut ties with bigoted and hateful individuals.

Re: How I talk to the victims of conspiracy theories

#117

Post by blumomo »

hobs wrote: post #30
blumomo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment resonates a lot with me. What I observe is that people mistake "fact" for "truth". A "fact" is the _interpretation_ of something that has happened. While truth is what objectively really happened. Most people can't detach their personal world view from an "absolute" reality and hence their "facts" are biased by the way how they _perceive_ the objective reality. But what's an objective reality? Everyone l…

It's sounds like a teenage Solipsism, and its really boring and tedious for other people.

For whom it is boring besides yourself? Are you presenting a „fact“ or your opinion ;) ?

Re: How I talk to the victims of conspiracy theories

#118

Post by paulryanrogers »

blix wrote: post #89
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes the other party is acting in good faith; one can probably point out logical errors to the non-conspiracy arguer as well. I mean (bear with me), you say the coronavirus is real because scientists say so? Which scientists? You're using weasel words and you're appealing to authority.

Ultimately, almost all arguments against conspiracy theories boil down to appeals to authority. Only a few people have personal evidence of the moon landing, the rest are relying on authority. The main issue with convincing people who believe in conspiracy to return to orthodoxy is that there aren't many tools beyond appeal to authority. If your only tactics are appeal to authority and bullying you are not going to w…

The threshold for self experimentation is raising though. One can buy a plane ticket or launch a rocket with a camera to see that the earth is not flat. Telescopes that can see evidence of humans reaching the moon are more attainable.

My guess is that's why more widely believed theories are increasingly elaborate or are those that require more effort to disprove.

Religions too seem to be evolving to increasingly abstract beliefs or face ever more mental gymnastics to justify. (Part of the reason I'm no longer a believer.)

Re: How I talk to the victims of conspiracy theories

#119

Post by spaceprison »

blhack wrote: post #19

>Are they quoting a fringe YouTube video (which may have been fact-checked and debunked) We have got to get away from this idea that you can "debunk" something with some authoritative source of truth. That is just not how reality works, and the idea that you can "fact check" and "debunk" your way to a healthy, functioning system of rhetoric is absurd. NO argument has EVER been won by somebody pointing to a third part…

Over the 2.5 years the number of conspiracy theories coming from my father in-law has increased dramatically. Initially I tried debunking them but that didn't work and often made things hostile.

What I've found helps keep things civil is to have a real dialog.

These ideas are shallow and built on soft ground, let them shoot the crazy idea out there, ask clarifying questions and peel the onion.

Re: How I talk to the victims of conspiracy theories

#120

Post by ezekg »

disease wrote: post #116
ezekg wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is kind of interesting to think about how we got here. If you question anything mainstream these days, or try to discuss an alternative viewpoint, the conversation almost always turns vitriol. It's unfortunate, because there have been a lot of "conspiracy theories" that have been shown fully- or partially-true with time, but people seem to be very cult-like in their beliefs, even if they don't truly understand the…

A lot of conspiracy theories are just slightly repackaged white supremacy and anti-Semitism. It's not hard for me to personally to cut ties with bigoted and hateful individuals.

Talking point #3: if somebody disagrees with you or the mainstream opinion, they're racist.

Give me a break.

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