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Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#271
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think permanent DST makes more sense. The chronobiologists disagree: > As an international organization of scientists dedicated to studying circadian and other biological rhythms, the Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) engaged experts in the field to write a Position Paper on the consequences of choosing to live on DST or Standard Time (ST). The authors take the position that, based on comparisons…

What do the chronobiologists say about living outside of a fixed clock schedule, and rising with the sun naturally? I’ve ask you before, but haven’t heard an answer: why are you convinced by this research that the data is strong enough to support the conclusion? The evidence here seems scant at best to make such strong claims. ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24314134 ) Are you part of SRBR?

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Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#272
post #226
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You already can get rid of time zones by only using UTC. But is is not very practical. The time zone communicates the part of the day in any place around the world.

I suspect most people on the "abolish time zones" kick don't actually deal with people in other timezones very much. By knowing what timezone someone is in, I know instantly--without even consulting their calendar to find out what their usual working hours are--whether 2pm my time is a reasonable time to propose a meeting. Similarly, every time I travel to a city in a different timezone, I'm going to have to find out…

That sounds great until you have to look at people's calendars anyway and have to maintain conversions between more than two time zones, some of which also jump around due to DST and other bullshit.

Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#273
post #118

It should be noted that the folks who study this: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology Seem to have come to a consensus that if we're going to get rid of DST, then health-wise it is best to have Standard Time year-round: > As an international organization of scientists dedicated to studying circadian and other biological rhythms, the Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) engaged experts in the fi…

Yeah, so I’ve followed the citations from SRBR’s position paper in the past https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24314134 And I found that the research was being quite seriously misrepresented. Based on reading the paper and reading quite a few of the papers they cite, I do not believe there is evidence to justify a claim that there exists any measurable health differences between staying on daylight vs staying on st…

> This appears to me to be someone’s agenda, and not something the research we have actually supports.

Other position papers that I've dug up when curiosity got the better of me:

> Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) is dedicated to advancing rigorous, peer-reviewed science and evidence-based policies related to sleep and circadian biology.

* https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/

* (refs, with pro and co): https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DST-References-S...

European Sleep Research Society:

* https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commiss...

Canadian Society for Chronobiology:

* https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-turn-back-th...

* https://twitter.com/ChronobioCanada/status/11906320965969264...

American Academy of Sleep Medicine (with 36 footnotes if you want to dig further):

* https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780

* https://doi.org/10.5664/jcsm.8780

The Centre for Chronobiology, based at the Psychiatric University Hospital (University of Basel):

* http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-D...

* http://www.chronobiology.ch

(Personally, I'm just going to trust the experts on this as I don't have the energy that you seem to have to go digging in this fashion. A quick cursory Google/DDG search is enough for me. Please don't take this post as an attack or anything.)

Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#274
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, so I’ve followed the citations from SRBR’s position paper in the past https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24314134 And I found that the research was being quite seriously misrepresented. Based on reading the paper and reading quite a few of the papers they cite, I do not believe there is evidence to justify a claim that there exists any measurable health differences between staying on daylight vs staying on st…

> This appears to me to be someone’s agenda, and not something the research we have actually supports. Other position papers that I've dug up when curiosity got the better of me: > Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) is dedicated to advancing rigorous, peer-reviewed science and evidence-based policies related to sleep and circadian biology. * https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ * (r…

Hi, thank you for the reply.

> Personally, I'm just going to trust the experts on this as I don't have the energy that you seem to have to go digging in this fashion. A quick cursory Google/DDG search is enough for me.

Are you saying you're dumping a pile of research links into this thread that you haven't even bothered to read, just because it showed up on Google?

I do appreciate the diplomatic tone and pile of links (you seem to have plenty of energy!) but your appeal to authority is ducking the two actual questions I've asked: why do you care - what stake do you have in this debate - what is prompting you to keep posting links to SRBR, especially if this is only the result of a quick cursory Google search? And secondly, why are you convinced by SRBR's position claims after I've pointed out several (easily verifiable) citations that fail to support the claims they're being used to make?

Maybe I'm wrong, and there is scientific consensus. I don't know because I haven't studied long enough. All I know is that SRBR's publications tickle my spidey sense BS meter a little bit. Now that I've verified myself they're playing fast and loose with some of their scientific research, it's going to be difficult for me to trust anything they say.

It would take less time than you've already spent promoting SRBR links in this thread alone to go verify a few of the sketchy citations I called out explicitly. Have you tried to verify the problems I called out?

Why blindly trust experts that mislead?

Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#275
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This appears to me to be someone’s agenda, and not something the research we have actually supports. Other position papers that I've dug up when curiosity got the better of me: > Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) is dedicated to advancing rigorous, peer-reviewed science and evidence-based policies related to sleep and circadian biology. * https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ * (r…

Hi, thank you for the reply. > Personally, I'm just going to trust the experts on this as I don't have the energy that you seem to have to go digging in this fashion. A quick cursory Google/DDG search is enough for me. Are you saying you're dumping a pile of research links into this thread that you haven't even bothered to read, just because it showed up on Google? I do appreciate the diplomatic tone and pile of link…

We live in the post-Gutenberg world and I don't have time to research every topic in every specialization. I do not have time to read the IPCC's entire climate change report, so will maybe look at the Abstract or Conclusion. See also experts on COVID-19, vaccinations, and GMO foods.

A lot of the discussion on DST seems to be "well I like later sunsets". Great. I like not having to wear a mask everywhere but do so anyway because that's what the expert consensus is.

The various Chronobiologist and Sleep Experts are putting forward (consensus?) statements that Standard Time is best, so I'll follow that. If you want to dig into the various Societies' position papers on DST/ST have at it. HN has all sorts of disagreements on all sorts of topic, and this may be another one of them.

I put forward these links as perhaps a starting point, and will not claim that they are an end point. If you want to argue against PhDs and say it's Snake Oil, I'm not going to contend it as I haven't put in the work (perhaps like you have).

I have been curious about DST (and time) for a while, especially since the IT drama of the DST time change during the Bush years, but the specific subject of DST popped up again last year due to the op-ed by the Canadian Society for Chronobiology:

* https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-turn-back-th...

If you think it's Snake Oil feel free to talk with the authors who work at various Canadian universities:

* https://www.mcgill.ca/microimm/nicolas-cermakian

* https://biology.gradstudies.yorku.ca/faculty/p-thomas/

* https://ovc.uoguelph.ca/biomedical-sciences/people/faculty/T...

Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#276
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, thank you for the reply. > Personally, I'm just going to trust the experts on this as I don't have the energy that you seem to have to go digging in this fashion. A quick cursory Google/DDG search is enough for me. Are you saying you're dumping a pile of research links into this thread that you haven't even bothered to read, just because it showed up on Google? I do appreciate the diplomatic tone and pile of link…

We live in the post-Gutenberg world and I don't have time to research every topic in every specialization. I do not have time to read the IPCC's entire climate change report, so will maybe look at the Abstract or Conclusion. See also experts on COVID-19, vaccinations, and GMO foods. A lot of the discussion on DST seems to be " well I like later sunsets ". Great. I like not having to wear a mask everywhere but do so a…

Hey I'm still curious about it too. Thank you again for your reply and explanation!

I don't think the field of chronobiology is snake oil. My only problem is some of SRBR's citations seem to be used to make stronger claims, stated with far greater certainty than the research actually supports. So the question, naturally, is why? You do care if the links you're posting, even as starting points, are fully true, partly true, or not true? Have you checked any of the citations I called out? (It would take no more than a few minutes.) Do you agree or disagree with my take?

> A lot of the discussion on DST seems to be "well I like later sunsets". Great. I like not having to wear a mask everywhere but do so anyway because that's what the expert consensus is.

Let's not get too carried away with analogies, there's a pretty big difference in the study, certainty, magnitude and consensus of disease prevention strategies right now than there is in the barely directly studied and marginal tradeoffs of DST. More or less all of the research you've posted talks about lack of direct study of DST time shifts and the need for more research (which is why the "strong" claims and conclusions seem especially problematic).

A lot of the research you're posting seems to boil down to "well we should wake up with the sunrise, not before", which could well be true. Abolishing DST in favor of standard time is being advocated for the reason that staying on DST pushes winter waking to before the sun comes up. I don't want that, it's a little difficult and depressing and puts the morning winter commute into darkness.

If standard time is that much more important than DST, what is happening to people in Finland, Norway, Iceland and Svalbard, where the time shift becomes irrelevant compared to the sun shift? Are they unhappy, unhealthy or dying?

Getting rid of DST means we're out of sync with the sun in the summer. If you believe it's important to rise with the sun in the winter, then it's probably not fair to characterize DST as "I like later sunsets". Is it also bad to sleep well past sunrise, and then go to bed well into darkness, or would it be better to let the sleep schedule slide to be more aligned with sunrise and sunset in the summer? It seems like all the biological reasons to advocate for winter alignment shouldn't be selectively ignored during the summer, right?

This is why I asked in another subthread whether neither daylight not standard is ideal, and we should rise with the sun. That's what animals do naturally, and what humans likely did before industrialization, right?

Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#277
post #213
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do know that institutions such as schools can change the time they start, right?

It actually can be quite difficult as school start time isn't independent of many other schedules, including school buses picking up other grades starting later. So, no, they can't necessarily. Kids going to school in the dark was one of the major reasons cited for not renewing the all-year DST experiment. I suppose you could find a way to change or just give them flashlights but, in any case, it was a public issue i…

Typically this is something that would be changed on the scale of the school system of a county. That resolves the school bus issue. As far as kids being picked up in the dark.. again, the school system can change start times during certain parts of the year so that doesn't happen.

Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#278
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the article makes points that would be very good in a different era, if I want to know what time it is in Melbourne, I type "Melbourne time" into Google and it tells me. If I want to know whether it's daytime, I type "Melbourne sunrise" into Google and it tells me. Abolishing timezones is much more doable now than at any point since their invention, however the motivation to do it may also be reduced since I ca…

> Abolishing timezones is much more doable now than at any point since their invention, I think you have it backwards: this is an argument for keeping timezones. If you we get rid of timezones, and everyone lives in UTC, then you already know the time in Melbourne: it's the same as where you live. But that does not tell you the human schedule in Melbourne. Right now, you can probably guess that business hours are "9-…

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Abolishing timezones would be more practical now than at any point in the past, but it's also less beneficial.

It's more practical because you can almost instantly learn what hours the sun is up anywhere in the world, which lets you make an educated guess about whether people are awake or in the office (and this would work without timezones). It's less beneficial because you can almost instantly learn what time it is anywhere in the world (with timezones).

Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#279
post #12

Social issues aside, the software perspective of keeping up with DST is very costly. Every time any government entity anywhere on Earth changes its mind about what zone they're in and when, the IANA needs to reissue the TZDB. Then every OS and platform vendor needs to patch up to a new TZDB. Just for laughs, Java seems to have its own TZDB so in general your OS and application layer might disagree about zones. This i…

> the software perspective of keeping up with DST is very costly. To be clear, the software perspective is to use Unix time instead.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_time

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Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You literally linked to the same article as the parent comment.

Wouldn't that be shocking? But in fact, the URL in question opens a specific reply to that article. How embarrassing!

Dammit, sorry.
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