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I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

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Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#181

Post by JabavuAdams »

One issue I'd like to see explored more deeply is the path-dependence of a comment's final score.

There's this often unstated assumption that "good" comments will rise to the top.

What about this:

1) Display all comment scores, all the time 2) A new comment is posted 3) Segment the readership somehow, so that the comment has a (possibly different) score for each segment. E.g. Allow a comment to have 4 different scores. 4) Start the comment off with a random score in the range [-2, +2], but one that's different for each viewer segment 5) track (but hide) the number of upvotes and downvotes for each score 6) display just init + upvotes - downvotes to each segment

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#183

Post by blhack »

teyc wrote: post #32

I disagree. It is forcing you to think for yourself. What do you want to learn here? What most HNers believe to be true, or do you want to learn to be independent?

By "Be independent", do you mean "go and learn what people who have written books believe to be true"?

Or do you mean "go and learn what people who have written forum posts believe to be true"?

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#185

Post by Kilimanjaro »

lukifer wrote: post #18
mmaunder wrote: post #3

You need to ween yourself off your social proof addiction. The problem with vote counts is that two downvotes can start a cascade of reflex downvotes. Or at best, it won't get upvoted. When vote counts where active, this effect caused many instances where an excellent comment was found greyed out at the bottom of the page until a few smart HN folks with high karma voted it back up.

Idea: a [view count] link. Once clicked, votes are ignored for that comment. You can vote, or get the social proof, but not both.

Also a [view votes] for the whole page, and you lose your right to vote on that particular topic.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#186

Post by mortuus »

StavrosK wrote: post #20
wdewind wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is absolutely a fault in any social proof system. As I mentioned, upvotes need to be taken with a grain of salt. I still hold they are far superior to nothing. Edit: case in point: I'd REALLY like to know how many people upvoted mmaunders original comment.

I must agree with this, I find this feature one of the most missed. It doesn't even have to show the number of upvotes, just anything that will tell me which of the posts is more highly upvoted in a relative manner (e.g. normalise all comments based on the highest ones on the page and use a 5-number/color/whatever scale).

Having the information normalized as you suggest would be great. Breaking it up into a ~5 point scale (especially if it took advantage of visual cues) would save some mental effort. Perhaps relative font sizes?

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#187

Post by [deleted] »

StavrosK wrote: post #20
wdewind wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is absolutely a fault in any social proof system. As I mentioned, upvotes need to be taken with a grain of salt. I still hold they are far superior to nothing. Edit: case in point: I'd REALLY like to know how many people upvoted mmaunders original comment.

I must agree with this, I find this feature one of the most missed. It doesn't even have to show the number of upvotes, just anything that will tell me which of the posts is more highly upvoted in a relative manner (e.g. normalise all comments based on the highest ones on the page and use a 5-number/color/whatever scale).

[deleted]

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#188

Post by moe »

wrs wrote: post #173
ggchappell wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance, I don't know whether your comment is something a lot of people agree on (it has a lot of upvotes) .... That highlights a major problem right there. I would hope that upvotes are for worthwhile contributions to the discussion. You (and others) seem to assume that they are for agreement. Different things. I would like to know whether lots of people think a comment is worthwhile. But except in the rare c…

This has been suggested before, but perhaps the ability to vote separately on "good/bad contribution" and "agree/disagree" would be a good thing. If nothing else, it might give the "agree/disagree" folks a way to express their views without affecting the sorting (which should be by "good/bad contribution", I hope most would agree).

I vote both "good contribution" and "agree" on your comment.

Your two metrics pretty much nail what I want to know to quickly skim a dense comments page. They don't even need to be numbers, a small graphical representation might work even better.

Just give my eyes something to lock on, from there I will likely read the sub-thread regardless of votes anyways.

The current state is awful. Just take this thread, with currently 180 comments. No chance am I going to skim even half of them to pick out the good ones. I read the top few, scroll down a little, and then quickly lose interest. - That's the new HN for me.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#189

Post by billswift »

Bud wrote: post #121
mmaunder wrote: post #3

You need to ween yourself off your social proof addiction. The problem with vote counts is that two downvotes can start a cascade of reflex downvotes. Or at best, it won't get upvoted. When vote counts where active, this effect caused many instances where an excellent comment was found greyed out at the bottom of the page until a few smart HN folks with high karma voted it back up.

Hard to count the ways in which mmaunder is wrong here, but let's try: >You need to ween yourself off your social proof addiction. Judgmental and prescriptive much? >The problem with vote counts is that two downvotes can start a cascade of reflex downvotes. a) You're guessing b) Is that really "a problem" c) Said "cascade" can only actually amount to 3 additional downvotes before the -4 limit is hit. Not much of a "c…

The -4 limit was discontinued months ago. Other than that, I agree.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#190

Post by fluidcruft »

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #176
fluidcruft wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, are you one of those pathologic "Edit: Downvotes? Really?!?" karma gamers on reddit that seem to feel entitled to upvotes? I think that sort of meta-entitlement karma-whoring is extremely annoying. I get a little chuckle when the person playing that game makes the edit within the ninja-edit window and is missing the edit-star on their comment. Of course even on HN even with the hidden points, you see your own com…

I'm a karma gamer for being disappointed when rational opinions are downvoted by people that make incorrect assumptions or whose opinion get in the way of a good discussion? I didn't really ask for your judgement, but since you've taken it upon yourself... I don't "game" karma. The few posts that I've editted here to inquire about downvotes have usually resulted in a further discussion supporting my point, or at the…

School conditions us to care about numbers assigned to our work so it's an easy trap to believe numbers on comments represent correctness or truth. When things are graded incorrectly it's only natural to want to object. I feel the number more as readings of my ability to communicate effectively in the medium with the audience. I wouldn't take low scores personally as a reflection of your skill or domain mastery.
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