Will setting downvote display limit to 0 instead of -4 help?
I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
31–40 of 248 posts
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#32I disagree. It is forcing you to think for yourself.
What do you want to learn here? What most HNers believe to be true, or do you want to learn to be independent?
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#33You need to ween yourself off your social proof addiction. The problem with vote counts is that two downvotes can start a cascade of reflex downvotes. Or at best, it won't get upvoted. When vote counts where active, this effect caused many instances where an excellent comment was found greyed out at the bottom of the page until a few smart HN folks with high karma voted it back up.
Idea: a [view count] link. Once clicked, votes are ignored for that comment. You can vote, or get the social proof, but not both.
That's quite brilliant. How about up, down and abstain buttons and if you click any you get to see the vote count and you're done voting. It will encourage voting, remove the social proof influence and give the option to abstain.
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#34You need to ween yourself off your social proof addiction. The problem with vote counts is that two downvotes can start a cascade of reflex downvotes. Or at best, it won't get upvoted. When vote counts where active, this effect caused many instances where an excellent comment was found greyed out at the bottom of the page until a few smart HN folks with high karma voted it back up.
> The problem with vote counts is that two downvotes can start a cascade of reflex downvotes.
If the comment is good, eventually its going to float up to the top anyway. An excellent article submitted at a time when most HN folks are away is less likely to hit the front page. This is a problem similar to what you mention. Hiding comment scores, IMHO is not the solution. Rather, it just kills the HN experience (at least for me).
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#35You need to ween yourself off your social proof addiction. The problem with vote counts is that two downvotes can start a cascade of reflex downvotes. Or at best, it won't get upvoted. When vote counts where active, this effect caused many instances where an excellent comment was found greyed out at the bottom of the page until a few smart HN folks with high karma voted it back up.
You put that excellently. Indeed, Hacker News was and should be a place where social proof is not desired.
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#36I've noticed the same thing. I'll see a debate which is basically a thread of two people replying to each other with no other contributors. In this circumstance, it's impossible to distinguish between a situation where one person gets 10 upvotes and holds a well-agreed opinion and the other person gets 1 or 2 upvotes and is arguing his opinion just well enough to avoid being downvoted. I understand that we're suppose…
Without some sort of vote indicator, it's hard to tell who has the most accurate opinion, except often in subjects like law, security, and seo where there are known experts that often chime in (e.g. grellas, tptacek, patio11). You assume that votes are a good indicator of who holds the most accurate opinion. My experience says that they are merely an indicator of who holds the most popular opinion, or who argues thei…
I would agree with you. Most topics don't even really have a clear measurement of objective accuracy. And, even when they do, it's rare that votes reflect expert's analysis of accuracy. Rather, votes on HN typically reflect one of the following:
O How well known is the individual - I'm even guilty of mindlessly clicking on a grellas comment when it has to do with Law, Security with tptacek, or patio11 on all sorts of things (Japan, Startups, SEO).
O How popular is their opinion - once again, I sometimes do this myself - when I want an endorphine rush, or my day is slow, I'll go create a comment that I know adheres to HN Philiosophy, just to enjoy racking up 40 or 50 points. Juvenile, I know, but it _feels_ good.
O How effective are they presenting - this is a bit of a mixed bag, and I'm happy to see that frequently very well argued positions are downvoted into oblivion because they are nonsense. :-)
But, with that said - the first approach actually isn't too bad - grellas/tptacek/patio11 actually _are_ worth reading, and their opinions really do count for more than a random individual - so maybe the "this personis well known and has a good track record" vote does have merit.
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#37You need to ween yourself off your social proof addiction. The problem with vote counts is that two downvotes can start a cascade of reflex downvotes. Or at best, it won't get upvoted. When vote counts where active, this effect caused many instances where an excellent comment was found greyed out at the bottom of the page until a few smart HN folks with high karma voted it back up.
I definitely agree, having upvotes visible fostered a herd mentality.
What I really like is there is less of a knee jerk reaction to assigning value to a post. You can assume it's value based upon placement, but in order to determine it's value you must actually read what they say.
What I don't understand is why people need to be told what is valuable. With an ever changing community, I don't see how you could forever trust it's ability to tell you what is a quality post and what is noise.
I find myself upvoting less as a result of this change because the post must actually persuade me to upvote it without the influence of the group mentality. This means my upvotes are now more meaningful, and I think that is a good thing. I believe many people are having similar experiences.
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#38You need to ween yourself off your social proof addiction. The problem with vote counts is that two downvotes can start a cascade of reflex downvotes. Or at best, it won't get upvoted. When vote counts where active, this effect caused many instances where an excellent comment was found greyed out at the bottom of the page until a few smart HN folks with high karma voted it back up.
Idea: a [view count] link. Once clicked, votes are ignored for that comment. You can vote, or get the social proof, but not both.
I want that option as an account setting, I'd gladly give up all voting rights in return for being able to see vote counts.
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#39You need to ween yourself off your social proof addiction. The problem with vote counts is that two downvotes can start a cascade of reflex downvotes. Or at best, it won't get upvoted. When vote counts where active, this effect caused many instances where an excellent comment was found greyed out at the bottom of the page until a few smart HN folks with high karma voted it back up.
On the whole, I concur. However, for comments like your own, the votes are interesting, as a rough measure of whether the HN community agrees with you or not. (It's a rough measure because upvoting!=agreeing.)
Clarification: I don't want to bring back vote counts, or even a general indicator of votes, like others have suggested. I approve of the hiding votes, but a creative compromise could be better than what we have now.
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#40Suggestion: Try getting dopamine from reading the comments instead of from game mechanics layered imperfectly on top of the forum.