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Masks Work. Really. We’ll Show You How

nytimes.com

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Re: Masks Work. Really. We’ll Show You How

#91

Post by ravenstine »

Quanttek wrote: post #29

This thread is quite embarrassing. The science is clear ( https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8,)yet HN still argues against it. But, unlike others, I don't think this very surprising. Many (not all) HN readers, being software engineers, have a high level of pretentiousness that comes from being good in one field, and then carry over that arrogance into areas where they have no clue. Suddenly, you see so…

Most HN comment sections are full of "yes, but..." comments. A post could say "water is wet" and 10 people would pop in to say "yes, but..."

Re: Masks Work. Really. We’ll Show You How

#92

Post by mariushn »

davak wrote: post #59

I'm a critical care doc and directly involved with COVID administrative policies for my health system organization. I have recently told friends and family to start buying and wearing medical masks. Our experience is that medical masks are very protective in protecting the wearer from catching the disease. Hospitals have plenty of masks now. A cloth mask prevents spread away from the wearer, but a medical mask protec…

How often can one reuse a medical mask? What would be most effective use for prolonged life?

eg: wear a mask 20 min at a time, then change with another while leaving the previous in open air to dry. Cycle 3 masks like this. Total mask lifetime (until effectivity drops to <75%) with this usage pattern: 10 hours.

Re: Masks Work. Really. We’ll Show You How

#93

Post by pc86 »

blunte wrote: post #22

Anything that in any way reduces the flow of virus particles by definition reduces the spreading of the virus. If a single globule of liquid leaving an infected person's mouth, whether due to a cough, a sneeze, or just a spitty staccato spoken statement, is a transmission opportunity. If a mask catches only one such drop, then it has lowered the risk of transmission. Hell, having all conversations with a pair of unde…

Stopping a single virus particle technically reduces risk of transmission but if you're only stopping a single particle, whatever your doing isn't worth the time it's taking to do it.

There is a line somewhere. People saying otherwise are either truly ignorant or intentionally lying.

Re: Masks Work. Really. We’ll Show You How

#94

Post by DanBC »

Kaze404 wrote: post #26
DanBC wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear: you're saying that we don't see any benefit with rigorous science. We only see the benefit when we drop our standards of evidence.

How are sociological studies any less scientifical? Is the human behavior something not worth studying?

They are science, but they're not good evidence. A well run meta analysis of well run RCTs would be best, followed by well run RCTs.

Anything else is science but weak evidence.

Re: Masks Work. Really. We’ll Show You How

#95

Post by DanBC »

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #30
DanBC wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me the science. We have lots of RCTs on mask wearing (mostly in healthcare professionals) and they struggle to find a benefit. People should wear masks, masks may help, but it's unhelpful when people misrepresent the strength of the evidence.

Sure, but does the science here matter? Is wearing a mask, which might reduce the spread, and might save lives, really that much of a burden, that you won't do it even though it might be a good idea? I say, do it anyways, I'll wait patiently for the science at literally any point in the future. If it turns out masks, statistically, do nothing, then I will be no worse off for trying.

I mean, I even said "people should wear masks, masks may help".

But when we're trying to persuade as many people to wear masks as possible it's really unhelpful for people to make dishonest or misleading claims about the effectiveness of masks.

A message of "we think masks work, and here's why" is more persuasive than "masks definitely work and you're an idiot if you think otherwise" because it's very easy to find good quality studies that don't show a benefit to mask wearing.

Re: Masks Work. Really. We’ll Show You How

#96

Post by DanBC »

petulla wrote: post #23
DanBC wrote: post #18

The headline says "masks work", then the article redefines masks to exclude the things that many people are wearing, and then adds further criteria that rules out most other people. It then fails to take into account research that shows that cotton masks become saturated with exhaled moisture and perspiration, and that stops their filtering properties. It also fails to take into account reductions in social distancin…

Which cotton mask study did you read? This one found cotton masks were ok https://www.marketwatch.com/story/new-study-finds-many-homem...

This article is a demonstration of a method of mask testing. It's not a test of masks. From the authors "As the title indicates, our work focused on developing a simple technique for mask evaluation that can be replicated at other labs, rather than a comprehensive mask test.

They do not test how long the masks stop droplet transmission. Other studies say that these masks start losing effectiveness as soon as you put them on, and most masks are ineffective after a few hours.

And, again, we do not care if masks stop droplet emission. (It's very likely that they do). What we care about is whether the public wearing masks in a pandemic stops virus transmission, and at the moment we don't know if it does or not.

Re: Masks Work. Really. We’ll Show You How

#97

Post by DanBC »

Accacin wrote: post #46
DanBC wrote: post #18

The headline says "masks work", then the article redefines masks to exclude the things that many people are wearing, and then adds further criteria that rules out most other people. It then fails to take into account research that shows that cotton masks become saturated with exhaled moisture and perspiration, and that stops their filtering properties. It also fails to take into account reductions in social distancin…

I'm pretty fed up of people acting so incredibly arrogant. Unless you can show evidence that wearing a mask is dangerous, and makes things worse, then just wear a mask. Stop trying to find reasons to prove everyone wrong. Some data someone else in the thread posted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24952278

Asking for your science is not arrogant. Addressing your link, that is somewhat persuasive, but they didn't correct for other behaviours.

Re: Masks Work. Really. We’ll Show You How

#98

Post by DanBC »

Quanttek wrote: post #29

This thread is quite embarrassing. The science is clear ( https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8,)yet HN still argues against it. But, unlike others, I don't think this very surprising. Many (not all) HN readers, being software engineers, have a high level of pretentiousness that comes from being good in one field, and then carry over that arrogance into areas where they have no clue. Suddenly, you see so…

> Many (not all) HN readers, being software engineers, have a high level of pretentiousness that comes from being good in one field, and then carry over that arrogance into areas where they have no clue.

Or maybe they trust scientists who are saying that we don't have good evidence yet?

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

> Although direct evidence is limited, the optimum use of face masks, in particular N95 or similar respirators in health-care settings and 12–16-layer cotton or surgical masks in the community, could depend on contextual factors; action is needed at all levels to address the paucity of better evidence. Eye protection might provide additional benefits. Globally collaborative and well conducted studies, including randomised trials, of different personal protective strategies are needed regardless of the challenges, but this systematic appraisal of currently best available evidence could be considered to inform interim guidance.

This para says we don't have enough evidence, and what we have isn't particularly good, and we need more evidence, but in the mean time the bits and bobs we have could guide us.

This is why I say "people should wear masks, masks may help, but we need better evidence".

All the way through your article there are people saying that the science is not clear.

> But for the variety of masks in use by the public, the data are messy, disparate and often hastily assembled.

[...]

> So, scientists have relied on observational and laboratory studies. There is also indirect evidence from other infectious diseases. “If you look at any one paper — it’s not a slam dunk. But, taken all together, I’m convinced that they are working,” says Grabowski.

> But such studies do rely on assumptions that mask mandates are being enforced and that people are wearing them correctly. Furthermore, mask use often coincides with other changes, such as limits on gatherings. As restrictions lift, further observational studies might begin to separate the impact of masks from those of other interventions, suggests Grabowski. “It will become easier to see what is doing what,” she says.

Re: Masks Work. Really. We’ll Show You How

#99

Post by DanBC »

seattle_spring wrote: post #40
LasEspuelas wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also fail to see how saturation leads to a decrease in filtration. I could imagine other scenarios in which efficacy of the mask would be reduced when saturated, but not because it stops filtering.

Further, I fail to see how a mask could become saturated so quickly. I'm usually only wearing a mask for 5 or 10 min at a time.

Right, and that's a bad thing.

Mask proponents say we need to wear a mask to prevent us spreading our covid to other people.

When you touch your mask you transfer covid to your hands. You then need to clean your hands immediately. You may have excellent hand hygiene, but we know (because there are hundreds of studies on this) that most people do not wash their hands often enough, and don't wash their hands properly.

If the science is telling you to wear a mask it's telling you to keep it on and stop touching it.

Re: Masks Work. Really. We’ll Show You How

#100

Post by blunte »

pc86 wrote: post #93
blunte wrote: post #22

Anything that in any way reduces the flow of virus particles by definition reduces the spreading of the virus. If a single globule of liquid leaving an infected person's mouth, whether due to a cough, a sneeze, or just a spitty staccato spoken statement, is a transmission opportunity. If a mask catches only one such drop, then it has lowered the risk of transmission. Hell, having all conversations with a pair of unde…

Stopping a single virus particle technically reduces risk of transmission but if you're only stopping a single particle, whatever your doing isn't worth the time it's taking to do it. There is a line somewhere. People saying otherwise are either truly ignorant or intentionally lying.

Thus the last paragraph of my comment.
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