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Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

arstechnica.com

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Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#51

Post by ghaff »

reso wrote: post #38
res0nat0r wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really I think it translates to any company the size of Google or Facebook. It would be impossible for them to have the same level of face to face service that a ma and pa shop with a userbase of 100 people provides. You might not like it, but if 500 million people had an easy way to lodge complaints for whatever they wished, their helpdesk/support staff would probably be larger than their engineering team .

This is exactly it. Facebook is 2000 people serving 600 million. They all work 10-12 hour days and still can't keep up with all the work thrown their way. Its not that they don't care, they are just swamped.

Agreed. Companies like Facebook, Google, eBay, etc. serve a staggering number of users with a relatively modest number of customer-facing staff. They're able to do so because they have very sophisticated software systems that can handle an awful lot of things automatically. But run into something that requires a human to do something and stuff breaks down. They're just not staffed for it.

And it's not clear they realistically could be staffed to handle it well. Though Amazon seems to do a better job than the others. So arguably you can provide better service if you're willing to invest in it. But for Facebook and Google, beyond some VERY base level, better customer service is a cost that probably wouldn't drive much in the way of revenue.

Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#52

Post by piguy314 »

res0nat0r wrote: post #37
rpedroso wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That analogy does not really hit the mark. Facebook lays claim to the data you upload to its website, and profits from that information. Sure, it's not quite the same as a financial exchange, but at the very least they should treat their users well -- their virtual monopoly isn't gonna last forever.

Really I think it translates to any company the size of Google or Facebook. It would be impossible for them to have the same level of face to face service that a ma and pa shop with a userbase of 100 people provides. You might not like it, but if 500 million people had an easy way to lodge complaints for whatever they wished, their helpdesk/support staff would probably be larger than their engineering team .

And yet youtube's DMCA compliance policy provides for more granular and specific information about the content in question and allows for easy to use counter-claim procedures for fair use cases... The issue here isn't that people expect a company with the scale of facebook to provide high touch, personal customer service for free (unreasonable) but rather that a company that makes it's money building highly scalable, automated processes has failed to design an intelligent process (reasonable).

Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#53

Post by falcolas »

hammock wrote: post #47
esmevane wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but think this blame mentality is the root of a lot of problems with the intended discourse, here. The issue at hand isn't whether or not Facebook has the power to do this, but rather that the system is intrinsically moronic in that it involves no checks and balances. It is trivial to abuse. You don't like a company's Facebook fan page, and you can have it removed with a little effort into building an em…

I am defending Facebook's right to deal with the stuff it publishes however it wishes. You don't have a contract with Facebook that they store and display your content, as you would a book publisher or private hosting service. With Facebook you voluntarily post your content, and they voluntarily publish it for free. They have no obligation to you to keep it up there for any reason whatsoever. If you want to guarantee…

On the contrary - Facebook owes it's users everything. Without them, Facebook does not exist. Every user provides Facebook with content, which Facebook then monetizes using ads. Every user also views those ads, directly earning Facebook money.

To assume that since there is no legal contract between a user and Facebook, Facebook has no need to treat its users well is simply untrue. The users make Facebook, not the other way around.

Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#54

Post by [deleted] »

Apocryphon wrote: post #39
powertower wrote: post #22

The worst is that as soon as Facebook detects the stink on the internet of this, they will rectify the situation for ArsTechnica, but everyone else will still be screwed. When you are dealing with virtual monopolies that have zero customer support and negative processes (Facebook, Google, etc) getting locked out does not mean that you get go somewhere else, it literally mean getting locked out of an entire aspect of…

I definitely agree. I believe that Facebook, Google, and Apple have some of the worst customer service out there due to their huge natures. Trying to get a straight answer from them is like trying to scale a completely smooth monolith.

[deleted]

Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#55

Post by tokenadult »

powertower wrote: post #22

The worst is that as soon as Facebook detects the stink on the internet of this, they will rectify the situation for ArsTechnica, but everyone else will still be screwed. When you are dealing with virtual monopolies that have zero customer support and negative processes (Facebook, Google, etc) getting locked out does not mean that you get go somewhere else, it literally mean getting locked out of an entire aspect of…

In what sense are you or I customers of Google or Facebook if we don't pay money to either company to use any of their services?

Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#57

Post by Hoff »

falcolas wrote: post #53
hammock wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am defending Facebook's right to deal with the stuff it publishes however it wishes. You don't have a contract with Facebook that they store and display your content, as you would a book publisher or private hosting service. With Facebook you voluntarily post your content, and they voluntarily publish it for free. They have no obligation to you to keep it up there for any reason whatsoever. If you want to guarantee…

On the contrary - Facebook owes it's users everything. Without them, Facebook does not exist. Every user provides Facebook with content, which Facebook then monetizes using ads. Every user also views those ads, directly earning Facebook money. To assume that since there is no legal contract between a user and Facebook, Facebook has no need to treat its users well is simply untrue. The users make Facebook, not the oth…

Did you read through the FB Terms of Service back when you signed up?

When I last read through that (and which was admittedly a few years back), the ToS indicated that whatever you uploaded became available to FB in perpetuity, and for whatever purpose FB wanted to make of it.

Put another way, if you didn't pay for something, then there's a good change it's you that's what's being sold.

Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#58

Post by [deleted] »

jpadvo wrote: post #36
powertower wrote: post #22

The worst is that as soon as Facebook detects the stink on the internet of this, they will rectify the situation for ArsTechnica, but everyone else will still be screwed. When you are dealing with virtual monopolies that have zero customer support and negative processes (Facebook, Google, etc) getting locked out does not mean that you get go somewhere else, it literally mean getting locked out of an entire aspect of…

In an update to the post: "As evidenced by our updates and comments, many people seem to be affected by this, and some of them don't have as loud megaphones as we do. We'll continue trying to find out why this process is the way it is, and if it will ever be changed." Ars is talking about helping everyone else by trying to get a better process in place. I really hope they follow through on this -- Facebook could cert…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#59

Post by powertower »

hammock wrote: post #42
powertower wrote: post #22

The worst is that as soon as Facebook detects the stink on the internet of this, they will rectify the situation for ArsTechnica, but everyone else will still be screwed. When you are dealing with virtual monopolies that have zero customer support and negative processes (Facebook, Google, etc) getting locked out does not mean that you get go somewhere else, it literally mean getting locked out of an entire aspect of…

Why should facebook care? They are a "monopoly" that you willingly submitted yourself to. They created a great service and you bought into it. If all your friends are on facebook then that's you and your friends' own damn fault. "It's not fair! Facebook has a responsibility to its users! I demand them to do such and such!" So what if facebook was never around? You are in debt to them for such a great service, they ne…

That's the problem, Facebook and other virtual monopolies don't care because they don't have to.

> You are in debt to them for such a great service, they never forced you to become so dependent.

No. I'm not in debt to them.

My ad views and clicks cancel the debt for the provided service. And my patronage further adds to push that balance in my favor.

In a way, you can say that Facebook and Google are in my debt.

> "It's not fair! Facebook has a responsibility to its users! I demand them to do such and such!"

There is a difference between a startup, a small-to-medium size business, and a monopoly.

Once you become a monopoly the rules change, since by definition you are the only option there is. Understand that we are not dealing with a business that cornered some niche. That's not a monopoly. What we are dealing with are businesses that are involved with billions of lives. They do have a responsibility, yet they accept none. It's a clear case of indifference, lack of understanding, and perhaps ego at the top of these orgs.

Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#60

Post by ovi256 »

leon_ wrote: post #56

> At least the help page has a contact e-mail address, but we have received no response as of yet. You could assume a $50 bil. company would have something like a customer service ...

Do you think they got to be worth $50 bil. by spending cash on such niceties such as customer service ? That's so old industry BTW. /joke
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