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Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

arstechnica.com

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Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#31

Post by TheAmazingIdiot »

ck2 wrote: post #17
jerf wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't sound to me like this is necessarily a DMCA complaint. While the DMCA defines certain procedures in return for certain protections, I don't think it actually forbids just dropping Facebook a note saying "Hey, this is infringing content", without even having to necessarly own the content in question, and if Facebook chooses to aggressively take it down, what recourse do you have? Filing a counternotice won'…

Safe-harbor means the provider dooes not have to authenticate a DMCA notice - the takedown notice is done under perjury, they just have to obey it to escape any liability. The catch is there is virtually never a prosecution for a bogus takedown, I cannot remember ever reading about one, it would be huge news. Bogus takedowns happen all the time on youtube so I guess now it's moved onto facebook. Can't believe I am su…

It'd work alright. Do you think you'd target Joe_Blow_1374 ?

Nope.

You'd target Actors/Actresses, Politicians, CXOs, and other influential people, and their families. When those people hurt, they WILL do something. Sometimes, that something could be changing the law, or using the law as a nice pointy stick.

Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#32

Post by mrerrormessage »

Can someone come up with a way that any of the Zynga stuff (or even better, Facebook-generated content) genuinely infringes on their rights? If they start getting takedowns for things that make them money, that might make them think about reforming their procedures.

Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#33

Post by JoeCortopassi »

ekanes wrote: post #30
JoeCortopassi wrote: post #23

Easy way to fix this: Flag everything you see on Facebook. Once it starts crippling everyday users, they will take more care in taking stuff down just because a random person complains

Random abuse against innocent people isn't really the moral solution. Public complaints and negative press for Facebook is a better way.

Didn't say it was moral, but it's the only way Facebook listens to complaints

Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#34

Post by chris_j »

msy wrote: post #20

I feel like I'm repeating myself daily at the moment. If you're not paying for it, you shouldn't expect anything . If people paid for the services they used, they'd have recourse and the interests of the provider and the consumer would be aligned. As it stands, why would or should Facebook give a shit? Brands building their online presence via Facebook are mad as far as I'm concerned, Facebook owns that content, they…

You may well be repeating yourself daily. This "if you're not paying for it then you're not the customer" meme is getting really annoying, partly because it is repeated so often (whenever anyone complains about a free service on the internet) but mostly because it is true.

The trouble is, Facebook don't have any viable competition any more. If someone leaves Facebook in disgust then the consequence is that they no longer use a social network. If a respected site like Ars Technica don't like Facebook's policies then, as you say, they have zero recourse.

Given the above, what would you advise Ars Technica to do, other than complain loudly and hope that Facebook smile favourably on them?

Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#35

Post by rpedroso »

res0nat0r wrote: post #29
yellowbkpk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am paying for it with a very valuable commodity: my personal information. I have every right to complain about getting the crappy end of the stick when stuff like this happens in the same way you have the right to complain about a crummy contract with AT&T or your roofer. Just because the currency in question is not (directly) the USD doesn't mean I'm not paying for it.

If your boss paid you via an excel spreadsheet of personal data every month I think you'd give a bit of pause on the real value of the dollar vs. personal information. Sure you are giving them personal information that is valuable, but I don't think the datacenter power company is going to take that as a monthly payment from Facebook each month the bill is due. You do have the right to complain, as everyone does, but…

That analogy does not really hit the mark. Facebook lays claim to the data you upload to its website, and profits from that information.

Sure, it's not quite the same as a financial exchange, but at the very least they should treat their users well -- their virtual monopoly isn't gonna last forever.

Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#36

Post by jpadvo »

powertower wrote: post #22

The worst is that as soon as Facebook detects the stink on the internet of this, they will rectify the situation for ArsTechnica, but everyone else will still be screwed. When you are dealing with virtual monopolies that have zero customer support and negative processes (Facebook, Google, etc) getting locked out does not mean that you get go somewhere else, it literally mean getting locked out of an entire aspect of…

In an update to the post: "As evidenced by our updates and comments, many people seem to be affected by this, and some of them don't have as loud megaphones as we do. We'll continue trying to find out why this process is the way it is, and if it will ever be changed."

Ars is talking about helping everyone else by trying to get a better process in place. I really hope they follow through on this -- Facebook could certainly use a dose of due process.

Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#37

Post by res0nat0r »

rpedroso wrote: post #35
res0nat0r wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your boss paid you via an excel spreadsheet of personal data every month I think you'd give a bit of pause on the real value of the dollar vs. personal information. Sure you are giving them personal information that is valuable, but I don't think the datacenter power company is going to take that as a monthly payment from Facebook each month the bill is due. You do have the right to complain, as everyone does, but…

That analogy does not really hit the mark. Facebook lays claim to the data you upload to its website, and profits from that information. Sure, it's not quite the same as a financial exchange, but at the very least they should treat their users well -- their virtual monopoly isn't gonna last forever.

Really I think it translates to any company the size of Google or Facebook. It would be impossible for them to have the same level of face to face service that a ma and pa shop with a userbase of 100 people provides. You might not like it, but if 500 million people had an easy way to lodge complaints for whatever they wished, their helpdesk/support staff would probably be larger than their engineering team .

Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#38

Post by reso »

res0nat0r wrote: post #37
rpedroso wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That analogy does not really hit the mark. Facebook lays claim to the data you upload to its website, and profits from that information. Sure, it's not quite the same as a financial exchange, but at the very least they should treat their users well -- their virtual monopoly isn't gonna last forever.

Really I think it translates to any company the size of Google or Facebook. It would be impossible for them to have the same level of face to face service that a ma and pa shop with a userbase of 100 people provides. You might not like it, but if 500 million people had an easy way to lodge complaints for whatever they wished, their helpdesk/support staff would probably be larger than their engineering team .

This is exactly it. Facebook is 2000 people serving 600 million. They all work 10-12 hour days and still can't keep up with all the work thrown their way. Its not that they don't care, they are just swamped.

Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#39

Post by Apocryphon »

powertower wrote: post #22

The worst is that as soon as Facebook detects the stink on the internet of this, they will rectify the situation for ArsTechnica, but everyone else will still be screwed. When you are dealing with virtual monopolies that have zero customer support and negative processes (Facebook, Google, etc) getting locked out does not mean that you get go somewhere else, it literally mean getting locked out of an entire aspect of…

I definitely agree. I believe that Facebook, Google, and Apple have some of the worst customer service out there due to their huge natures. Trying to get a straight answer from them is like trying to scale a completely smooth monolith.

Re: Facebook shoots first, ignores questions later; account lock-out attack works

#40

Post by kmfrk »

Apocryphon wrote: post #39
powertower wrote: post #22

The worst is that as soon as Facebook detects the stink on the internet of this, they will rectify the situation for ArsTechnica, but everyone else will still be screwed. When you are dealing with virtual monopolies that have zero customer support and negative processes (Facebook, Google, etc) getting locked out does not mean that you get go somewhere else, it literally mean getting locked out of an entire aspect of…

I definitely agree. I believe that Facebook, Google, and Apple have some of the worst customer service out there due to their huge natures. Trying to get a straight answer from them is like trying to scale a completely smooth monolith.

I think that as soon as there's some vagueness about what you are paying the companies for, and how you are paying for them (Google Checkout, Free Facebook, Apple App Store), all consumer concerns are forfeit.

Conversely, when you pay for a physical Apple product like a Macbook, consumer laws make it much clearer what services and guarantees the company must provide its customers.

More in the same vein: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2087120.

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