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Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

npr.org

111–120 of 255 posts

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#111
post #28

Yeah this is a bit premature. I dunno why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed (it's pretty rare) and everyone goes home happy? Apex predator reintroduction is a good litmus test for how much conservation we can stomach, so I think it's important that we get this right.

I agree. Reintroduce them to Times Square. Until then, why should rural residents have to fear for their children’s and pet’s safety?

Do you understand that there is nothing in Times Square that is anything like natural wolf habitat?

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#112

Here in Wisconsin the wolf argument is a wealthy vs poor issue. Specifically, it is mostly the southern wealthy urbanites and suburbanites dictating to the poorer northern half of the state that they must put up with the re-introduction of wolves. It would be much less of an issue if the wolves were also introduced into the county forests and state parks in the southern half of the state where the wealthy urbanites a…

You are dramatically overstating the north-south divide in Wisconsin and the idea that “Southern Wisconsinites like the idea of having a wolf population” is the primary concern here is just insulting. In particular, while rural people are (quite understandably) more anti-wolf than urban people, the difference is not nearly as large as you suggest. And a huge part of the existing difference is about deer hunting competition rather than personal safety or protecting livestock. Further, it’s difficult to disentangle that rural whites are more right-wing than urban whites and likely to oppose federal endangered species protections in principle.

Via https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/WildlifeHabitat/wolf/documents/Wolf...

“We found that state residents held attitudes toward wolves that were more favorable than unfavorable— by a small margin within wolf range; and by a larger margin outside wolf range.

  - Survey respondents across the state endorsed six separate statements as reasons for sustaining wolf populations in the state (p. 25-26)

    - For example, 84% of respondents outside wolf range agreed that wolves are “important members of the ecological community;” 67% of range residents agreed (p. 26).

    - Also, 83% in non-range agreed that “wolves have a right to exist;” 69% of wolf range residents agreed (p. 26)

    - On an overall wolf attitude index score that ranged from -12 (very negative) to +12 (very positive), wolf range residents averaged a score of 2.5 indicating a slightly positive attitude (p. 29).

  - Outside wolf range, average wolf attitude index scores (mean=4.8) were significantly higher statistically than scores of residents within wolf range (p. 28) 

  - A relatively high percentage of respondents throughout the state (31% non-range,
24% wolf range) had neither favorable nor unfavorable feelings toward wolves (p. 24).

  - Among the survey respondents within wolf range, “maintaining the same number of wolves” was the most frequently selected response (26%) for a statewide wolf population goal (p. 31).

  - 17% checked “Don’t know” as their statewide wolf population preference; 

  - 15 % indicated that they wanted “more” wolves in the state;

  - 15% wanted “fewer” wolves in the state;

  - 12% wanted “many fewer” wolves;

  - 11% wanted “zero”

  - 4% wanted “many more.”
- Among the survey respondents within wolf range, most people (40%) wanted wolf numbers to be “maintained” at current levels in their county of residence (p. 32).

  - 18% wanted wolf numbers “decreased” in their home county in wolf range; 

  - 15% wanted wolves “eliminated” from their county;
- 13% wanted to see an “increase” in their county wolf population:

- 14% were “not sure

- People outside of wolf range—who reported less experience with wolves than rural residents of wolf range— were generally more positive toward wolves, perceived fewer risks from wolves, and were statistically more likely to favor maintaining (29%) or increasing (27%) wolves in the state than were people were people residing within wolf range.

  - This finding is consistent with other research that finds people with less exposure to wolves tend to view them more favorably.

  - Less than half of residents (43%) living outside wolf range counties have ever seen a wolf in Wisconsin, even while vacationing or recreating in parts of the state where wolves live; by contrast 62% of wolf range residents have seen a wolf at least once (p. 37).

  - 28% of non-range respondents indicated “Don’t know” when asked for their statewide wolf population preference (p. 31).
- In addition to the living in a county that has wolves, two other factors emerged from the study which account for many of the differences among respondent attitudes toward wolves and their preferences for wolf management goals. These factors are:

  - living and/or growing up in a rural area (p. 42-43)

    - being a deer hunter (p. 48-52).
- Consistent with prior research conducted both nationally and internationally, rural residents in wolf range expressed less support for wolves than did people living in non- rural areas of wolf range, including those respondents residing in small and large towns.

  - Forty-seven percent of current rural, wolf range residents wanted to have fewer (33%) or no wolves (14%) in the state; 24% the same number of wolves; and 16% wanted more wolves in the state (p. 43).

  - Among wolf range respondents who were raised in a rural area and continue to live in a rural area, 57% want fewer wolves in the state (p. 43).
- Current rural wolf range residents were split on their willingness to have wolves living near them; 49% were not willing and 45% were willing (p. 45-46).

  - Among those wolf range residents who grew up in a rural area, willingness to have wolves living nearby drops to 40% and the frequency of those who would prefer to not live by wolves increases to 55% (p. 40).

  - Two out of three people living on farms within wolf range were unwilling to live near wolves (p. 121).

  - About half (49%) of all residents in wolf range said they are willing to have wolves live near them compared to 43% who are not willing (p. 40).

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#113

Yeah this is a bit premature. I dunno why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed (it's pretty rare) and everyone goes home happy? Apex predator reintroduction is a good litmus test for how much conservation we can stomach, so I think it's important that we get this right.

Reintroducing gray wolves to Colorado is a statewide referendum on the ballot this week [0]. Part of the ballot language requires paying ranchers for livestock killed: "...requiring the commission to fairly compensate owners for losses of livestock caused by gray wolves".

[0]: https://ballotpedia.org/Colorado_Proposition_114,_Gray_Wolf_...

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#114
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we even pay? There's no constitutional right to be able to leave your livestock basically unprotected on vast tracts of land where they're vulnerable to predators. I mean, if it makes it more palatable it's probably worth it to pay farmers... but I viscerally dislike the idea that any industry has the right to: 1. Destroy the environment for their convenience 2. Be indemnified by the government for their i…

Why should we even pay? There's no constitutional right to be able to leave your livestock basically unprotected on vast tracts of land where they're vulnerable to predators. The argument would go: the government does not want the rancher to actually protect his cattle because that would involve shooting the wolves. That's why the wolves on the list in the first place. If don't want cattle put in a barn all day, then…

That argument presupposes the right of the farmer to do whatever they want to protect their cattle, which was what I was objecting too.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#115
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A farmer that protest his livestock is, guess what, a hunter. What is up with the semantics on murdering livestock?

Wolves are not livestock, which is a term for animals useful to humans.

Wolves murder livestock. Perhaps we should get rid of all the guns and forget history so wolves can murder again huamns again

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#116
post #42
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we even pay? There's no constitutional right to be able to leave your livestock basically unprotected on vast tracts of land where they're vulnerable to predators. I mean, if it makes it more palatable it's probably worth it to pay farmers... but I viscerally dislike the idea that any industry has the right to: 1. Destroy the environment for their convenience 2. Be indemnified by the government for their i…

Reintroduction and protection of large predators has diffuse benefits and concentrated damages. It affects the average rancher orders of magnitude more (and importantly, more negatively) than it affects the average non-rancher. So you have a group with common interests who are ready to act as an obstruction to the greater social good because it's going to financially harm them. You _can_ tell them to shove it, but th…

Yeah, I get the practical argument, but as you say the big picture looks very different.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hunting is a practice as old as mankind itself. And in many parts of the world, it's a tradition that's been handed down from from parents to children even today. It also helps keep the various wild herds/packs from exploding in size, reducing the number of wild animals that die from starvation. (Bias disclaimer: I don't hunt, but I live in a state where I'm a minority)

The purpose of hunting is to acquire food. Wolves are not food animals, nor are they any longer competition for us. There's no evidence that wolf populations would explode if not managed by humans, so controlling them seems premature. There is plenty of evidence though that wolves help manage ruminant populations which do explode out of control without their natural predator, which just so happens to do a better job…

Wolves are at the top of the food chain. They would manage deer population down to a certain level, which would stop their own population growth, except, they would then start going after cattle, which is how we got where we are now. Hunting is the final critical piece of management that will keep them thriving.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed Ah ha. A HN thread close to home (I live within earshot of wolves in Montana). So...we do [1], [2]. Ranchers (generalizing, of course) just don't like wolves. It's a really deep cultural thing. So if you as president want to take some step that will cause a bunch of folks in ranching areas to high five, you'd delist wolves. That they may not in fact be impacte…

If someone was killing my pets, while paying me reasonable compensation, I would also be pissed off at the arrangement. Some things money can't buy.

Which is like pissed off that an alligator ate your dog when you took your dog to swim in alligator-infested waters.

How dare nature be.... natural! Let's kill all the alligators!

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed Ah ha. A HN thread close to home (I live within earshot of wolves in Montana). So...we do [1], [2]. Ranchers (generalizing, of course) just don't like wolves. It's a really deep cultural thing. So if you as president want to take some step that will cause a bunch of folks in ranching areas to high five, you'd delist wolves. That they may not in fact be impacte…

If someone was killing my pets, while paying me reasonable compensation, I would also be pissed off at the arrangement. Some things money can't buy.

> someone was killing my pets, while paying me reasonable compensation

They're not pets. You've just described livestock farming.

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