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I Violated a Code of Conduct

fast.ai

831–840 of 971 posts

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#831

> I was concerned that if only partial information became available, the anti-CoC crowd might jump on this as an example of problems with codes of conduct more generally, or might point at this as part of “cancel culture” (a concept I vehemently disagree with, since what is referred to as “cancellation” is often just “facing consequences”) haha... 'Everyone else who gets accused of some transgression and is afforded…

He still isn't ready to believe that this whole movement that accompanies CoCs is pushed for malicious purposes by twisted power hungry people. That would require a massive loss of innocence and a reckoning about the nature of the world that only comes, reluctantly, from repeated exposure to and reflection on the same problem. I have seen many people in similar situations that just completely roll over in a prey resp…

How is thinking people are malicious a precondition?

This is a community in and around programming; if anyone can accept that well-intentioned systems can explode in our faces spectacularly, it should be us.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#832
post #810

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having a hidden set of implicit mores is far worse. In every arena I've operated this is always the case. Military, Big Company and on the streets. Not saying it's right, but it's extremely common (in my experience) > Rules shouldn't be implicit in professional environments. Totally agree. But again, everywhere I've been there are at least 2 sets of rules. Maybe I am jaded by conforming to the 'It is what it is' me…

It is hard. Without a common background (raised with similar upbringing, same religions), your implicit rules can diverge greatly with the others. Not to mention born in different era will play a big role in this. Some people simply don't grow with the changing time. That's why it is more favorable in today's environment to have explicit rules like CoC. At least it brings people to the same understanding quicker. It…

Thanks for this comment. I think it's time I broaden my own perspective a bit.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#833

After reading the entire post, I feel really bad for him, and I hope he gets the time off and the support necessary to recover from this incident. I also feel quite angry with how he has been treated. So please let me vent it out here as politely as I’m able to. I can imagine something like this or worse happening on social media groups, but an ostentatious “committee” that listens only to one side and never gives th…

> And the chuckling in the call when someone has already said they’re not in a proper emotional state is just bullying. I can’t speak to who this person was or why they did this, but I did just want to mention that there is at least one good faith explanation that isn’t straight up bullying. When I am in uncomfortable situations, I have a nervous chuckle. If I were in this call, giving this feedback to this person, I…

In this context, it's up to whoever is offended to decide how guilty the perpetrator is. Or even a third party to be offended on behalf of someone else.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#834

> I was concerned that if only partial information became available, the anti-CoC crowd might jump on this as an example of problems with codes of conduct more generally, or might point at this as part of “cancel culture” (a concept I vehemently disagree with, since what is referred to as “cancellation” is often just “facing consequences”) haha... 'Everyone else who gets accused of some transgression and is afforded…

> haha... 'Everyone else who gets accused of some transgression and is afforded no due-process is in fact guilty and deserving of punishment. Mine is the unique case of an opaque and capricious CoC process being applied unjustly.'

This isn't close to what he's saying. He's saying that despite the fact that the CoC enforcement got it wrong in his case, they are still valuable. You know like laws are still valuable despite the fact that innocent people are sometimes convicted. In both cases the solution is to improve the process, not throw out the concept.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#835
post #695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rebuilt? Why? Do you read the code of conduct when you attend a conference? Personally, I haven't even read the code of conduct for my job, and certainly wouldn't read one if I was speaking at or attending a conference. The CoCs are completely unnecessary and, as shown in this example, arbitrarily enforced. In the blog post I read that their CoC prohibits threats and assaults. Consider how silly that is. If someone's…

"Why should rules exist? We should just operate on intuitive feelings of what is or isn't acceptable all the time." Why NOT formalize rules to some extent? Having a hidden set of implicit mores is far worse. In fact, you can easily read this post as a pro-COC argument. After all, the author is able to make a really strong case that he didn't really infringe on any part of the COC, and that the COC was poorly construc…

Because the formalization is "fake" -- it's still just as poorly defined and arbitrary as it was before (as social convention), and just as poorly defensible as it was before.

It just gives power to the accuser to say "Please refer to article 3 section 2 for compliant behavior. BANNED". But unlike a proper ruleset, the defense cannot do the same, because there's no actual definition of rude specified that I could say "In fact, I did none of those things, your honor"... and the accuser must iteratively prove his case. Instead I have to say "Im not being rude", and then it becomes a he said, she said, but with the accuser weilding "formal rules".

These are rules in the form of "don't be someone I don't like", and at best follows the fashion "the accused is presumed guilty until shown otherwise"

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#836
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support codes of conduct but this is EXACTLY the thing that opponents point to when they oppose them. Why don't you come to to the dark side and oppose codes of conduct then? I consider the purported goals of codes of conduct to be laudable. But this kind of thing becomes inevitable when SJWs aka political correctness police get power through trying to enforce codes of conduct. It isn't that sometimes proponents of…

Can you provide a concrete example of this “political correctness” you are opposed to?

First, I would like to recommend http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html as background for what I object to about political correctness.

Political correctness pushes the idea that the whole world should be trying to create a safe space for those who have had any kind of past challenge. There is a time and place for safe spaces. However the act of encouraging people to figure out what problems they can complain about, then coddling them, makes people more fragile. This has long-lasting negative implications for their mental health.

For example https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/what-mentally-strong... explains what has actually been observed in children whose parents tended too closely to their perceived needs. Similarly therapists have found that encouraging people with PTSD to avoid any reminder of their past trauma actually makes the trauma worse. Instead it is more effective to desensitize them with controlled exposure to the trauma to teach them to be able to handle it.

This gives us some idea of how to create mental health. What are we doing instead? Well, we are teaching a whole generation that the world needs to take care of them due to a variety of past misdeeds. In the process we teach them to be sensitive to things that otherwise would not have bothered them very much. We then encourage them to demand that they not encounter reminders of what they don't like, and try to make the whole world a "safe space" for them. This is a recipe for systemically creating PTSD among people who otherwise would not develop it. Thereby creating the exact condition that we are trying to help. And, having created it, we have motivation to do more of the same so that more people become fragile.

I know, I know. This isn't a popular point of view. It suggests that a large portion of the SJW agenda is backwards. However I believe, and there is evidence from psychology to back me up, that it is right. We should not go overboard to protect people from encountering speech and ideas that they don't like. We should instead make people resilient to that experience. Both for their mental health, and so that they learn critical thinking.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#837
post #695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why should rules exist? We should just operate on intuitive feelings of what is or isn't acceptable all the time." Why NOT formalize rules to some extent? Having a hidden set of implicit mores is far worse. In fact, you can easily read this post as a pro-COC argument. After all, the author is able to make a really strong case that he didn't really infringe on any part of the COC, and that the COC was poorly construc…

> Why NOT formalize rules to some extent? Besides the reams of examples of CoC's being abused and arbitrarily enforced like the one in the attached article you mean? I've never even heard of a CoC being applied in any way except a petty, bureaucratic way.

> I've never even heard of a CoC being applied in any way except a petty, bureaucratic way.

Sounds like a classic case of selection bias.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#838

I looked for an independent primary source on on these events and wasn't able to find one. However, it may be of interest that the conference program lists the talk title as "Creating delightful libraries and books with nbdev and fastdoc" [0], whereas the delivered talk has the title of "I Like Notebooks" and is a direct response to Joel's talk. The conference organizers, or others, may have expected a different keyn…

> I don't see any talks posted on the JupyterCon site yet.

Talks are available to attendees, apparently: https://twitter.com/LorenaABarba/status/1319252544091205632

> small technical organizations are often poor at community management

NumFOCUS is fact promoting their "Diverse & Inclusive Spaces and Conferences Cookbook" so they have presumably put a fair amount of time and effort into this:

https://twitter.com/NumFOCUS/status/1321474326202404867

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#839

> I was concerned that if only partial information became available, the anti-CoC crowd might jump on this as an example of problems with codes of conduct more generally, or might point at this as part of “cancel culture” (a concept I vehemently disagree with, since what is referred to as “cancellation” is often just “facing consequences”) haha... 'Everyone else who gets accused of some transgression and is afforded…

It's mental gymnastics. I'm not convinced that CoCs are valuable. Even without the explicit language, you can still kick out people who behave badly. (IMO) The CoCs are just there to try to make a political statement about which groups of people they support and to justify groupthink.

Anyways, to those people that believe there are a few minor slippages in what the CoC was intended for. I have been banned from a public slack group for a CoC:

It was from the Confluent slack group after they ran a contest/game for their Kafka Summit conference. They did the virtual points system which could be traded for branded swag. I earned the points needed. They informed people that the swag was limited first come first serve, and they said they'd announce the store.

Well at least half of the people didn't get the email notifying about the store, half did and made their orders. There was no formal communication from Confluent, other than "we're working on it." 2 days went by, people were asking on #kafka-summit, we were given bad suggestions (by Confluent) about how to auth into the store. Then I got a letter from the store that "sorry you didn't participate and you're not eligible."

No notice about this from Confluent, so I ended up posting "I just got this letter WTF, @conferenceorgs". That prompted them being more concerned about "me swearing at their staff". Also I mentioned "I figure I'm going to already get banned so I'll say it: This makes Confluent look sh_tty" ... a few minutes later CoC banned by Tim Berglund [the head of dev adv at confluent].

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#840
I attended JupyterCon- the organizers were very focused on inclusivity, which I definitely appreciate. I love attending conferences just to hear from everyone. This is why inclusivity matters to me- it welcomes a broader slice of people. And virtual conferences have the potential to bring even more people together (world-wide populations that cannot travel internationally, people who cannot travel for a week at a time, etc). I also want to hear people talk honestly and CoC violations like this worry me.

The keynote speakers were all great and I'm excited for them to be posted live, I thought they were supposed to be available at the end of the week.

Jeremy's was a different keynote than the others- more technically oriented, but nothing struck me at the time as being a CoC violation. I could easily have missed something, clarity from NumFOCUS would be greatly appreciated here if only for future speakers.

This was my first virtual conference but the organizers' overabundance of caution detracted from the experience in some ways- the talks were all in WebEx rooms where only the presenters were visible and the chat messages could only be seen by the presenters. The effect of this was that it felt like you were in an empty room. The explanation for this setup was to prevent trolling, but this was quite a small conference and it seemed to really cut down on attendee chatter.

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