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I Violated a Code of Conduct

fast.ai

731–740 of 971 posts

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the chuckling in the call when someone has already said they’re not in a proper emotional state is just bullying. I can’t speak to who this person was or why they did this, but I did just want to mention that there is at least one good faith explanation that isn’t straight up bullying. When I am in uncomfortable situations, I have a nervous chuckle. If I were in this call, giving this feedback to this person, I…

This is the strongest argument against zero-tolerance policies (I don't think it applies in this case, but there are plenty). They are fundamentally inhumane. (You find zero tolerance in schools too. It's heartbreaking to see children doing innocuous things and responsible adults completely vacating any kind of responsibility or accountability.) If you get a group of people together, everyone's going to have to put i…

While zero tolerance policies at schools are awful, at least there they serve an arguably useful purpose: avoiding litigation against the school. In a CoC it's just an easy way for the commissars and nomenklatura that wrote/enforce the CoC to harm their enemies

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#732
post #726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rebuilt? Why? Do you read the code of conduct when you attend a conference? Personally, I haven't even read the code of conduct for my job, and certainly wouldn't read one if I was speaking at or attending a conference. The CoCs are completely unnecessary and, as shown in this example, arbitrarily enforced. In the blog post I read that their CoC prohibits threats and assaults. Consider how silly that is. If someone's…

Fwiw, I know someone who wasn't able to get a police report for assault but was able to ban someone from an event. If you're interested in making spaces more welcoming and existing legal structures aren't doing the job, codes of conduct are extremely valuable.

This might sound bad especially to you or the someone you know, but if the legal system (criminal or civil) was not able to act (presumably due to lack of evidence), then I don't think events or other organizations should act either.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are of course right about (a) and (b) being the real issues for people actually engaging on a good-faith basis. That said: 1) There are some incredibly wide-ranging disagreements on (a) at this point, with few people being willing to acknowledge gray areas. Witness incidents like https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-hounding-of-a-scotti... (and please ignore the somewhat-inflammatory title and do read the stor…

There's a lot of interesting stuff here. You're right in that there are multiple things that people mean when they say cancelling. Specifically, in the NYT article, the phrase "based on an opinion or an action" really struck me as capturing a common issue I have with use of the term, which is to lump together public shaming/pressure to fire/boycott based on e.g. sexual assault, with that based on an opinion. As you s…

For the record: I don't understand why people are downvoting your comment, and I just upvoted it.

To whoever did the downvoting: please stop downvoting respectful discussion. Thank you.

> which is to lump together public shaming/pressure to fire/boycott based on e.g. sexual assault, with that based on an opinion

I do think that "an action" can be something much more inoccuous than "sexual assault". Think https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/502975-cal... which was clearly an "action", not an "opinion".

> I think that it can be legitimate to read an entire article and draw conclusions about the underlying message, motivation and mindset of the author.

Absolutely agreed, and that should inform the way you interpret the events described in the article. That said, I think it's important to keep in mind that even if the author is biased that doesn't immediately make everything they say false...

> - It states "fake evidence was manufactured" but doesn't actually cite any fake evidence.

That's interesting, because in my reading the text immediately following this sentence (about using menstruation as a metaphor, etc) was the specific description of the evidence that was found and that the author considers "fake". I'm not sure whether your disagree with the "fake" characterization or whether in your reading this was simply disconnected from the previous sentence.

> It eventually states, in as obscurantist a manner as possible, that Lindsay doesn't believe that trans women should be called women

Again, interesting. My reading of the article was that this was the "extreme reading" of the specific poem "The Imagined We", and the views imputed to Lindsay by her accusers, not a statement about her actual views.

I don't know whether you watched the linked video with the poem's recitation; it's annoyingly slow compared to reading, of course. But the poem doesn't directly say anything remotely like "trans women are not women"; it does talk about menstruation as something "we" (women) experience. Which is of course not true for all women, just like the other things mentioned in the poem are not necessarily experienced by all women.

I admit that I could be wrong here, but I did do some searching both when I originally read the article and just now and have not been able to find any evidence of Lindsay actually explicitly saying that she does not believe trans women should be called women. I'd welcome correction on this point if I'm wrong!

> Conservatives may hold all of the levers of power, dominate government, institutions, and the plutocratic class

Again, interesting. I would not say that conservatives dominate either "institutions" or "the plutocratic class", for what it's worth. Certainly not in terms of social attitudes.

> i.e. as if it were some serious social ill.

I do think that a climate of fear in which people are afraid to say anything other than enthusiastically parroting what is perceived as "the party line" because it will be misconstrued and twisted in ways that get them fired _would_ be a serious social ill.

I think there's a good argument to be had about whether we are currently experiencing such a climate; it seems to me that in some social/professional circles we are and in most we are not, at least so far. Depending on which of these circles one belongs to, the seriousness is therefore perceived very differently.

> Look up how much violence has been committed by people professing to be a part of antifa.

Yes, the whole antifa angle seems pretty clearly to be bunk and the police response seems like self-serving lies to me.

And going back to the original issue that set off this whole series of events, I don't have any good evidence for how much _actual_ anti-feminist violence is committed by "trans activists" or anyone associated with them. That is, whether the belief in "violent action" in the original "Skinny" article is actually something that leads to "violent action" in practice or whether it's basically people venting in ways that I happen to think are crude and inappropriate but are apparently acceptable in a number of communities. My prior is that there is not much, if any, actual violence going on here.

That said, I can understand someone opposing the idea of normalizing threats of violence of any sort, on the belief that once threatening of a particular kind of violence is normalized, people will in fact start acting on those threats.... There is some historical support for that belief.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think there are negative sub conscious biases around race? Do you think racism has the same consequences for all races, for example, someone who is a member of a minority group vs someone who is not for a particular region?

Second question: No. I think I know where the original idea came from. Racism against the majority group is relatively benign compared to that against a minority. It is unlikely that racism can phase them to a relevant degree. But that stops to be the case when you have companies and media personalities starting to discriminate on the basis of skin color. Furthermore I think the most racist people are those that have…

Dealing with your own subconscious biases is a continuous activity. I grew up in a society with deep structural problems around equality and those sorts of problems seep into every aspect of life. I think it would be arrogant of me to claim I'm somehow immune, that it hasn't influenced the way I think.

I have no problem accepting that I have subconscious biases around things like race and gender, but I work to recognise those biases and I do the best I can to mitigate them.

I don't think it's enough to pass a law and declare the that the war against racism has been won, society has to work clean up the mess and pay off the debt left behind. If that includes compensatory justice, so be it.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#735

It was clearly a mistake for him to even play along, especially if he was emotionally exhausted already. The best you can do when people are being stupid like this is ignore them. They hold no power over you unless you let them. This whole CoC thing is sadly fraught with virtue signaling psycho-sadists who enjoy playing tribunal. The people who actually cared about fostering inclusive human communities got bullied ou…

> The people who actually cared about fostering inclusive human communities got bullied out of positions of power long ago This claim is made elsewhere in these comments. What is the actual story here? Who bullied who? When?

The people currently in charge of this in many organisations (perhaps not most, but certainly the ones you hear about) are bullies. When a bully comes up against an unprepared non-bully, the bully wins.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#736

After reading the entire post, I feel really bad for him, and I hope he gets the time off and the support necessary to recover from this incident. I also feel quite angry with how he has been treated. So please let me vent it out here as politely as I’m able to. I can imagine something like this or worse happening on social media groups, but an ostentatious “committee” that listens only to one side and never gives th…

Rebuilt? Why? Do you read the code of conduct when you attend a conference? Personally, I haven't even read the code of conduct for my job, and certainly wouldn't read one if I was speaking at or attending a conference. The CoCs are completely unnecessary and, as shown in this example, arbitrarily enforced. In the blog post I read that their CoC prohibits threats and assaults. Consider how silly that is. If someone's…

Some conferences ask you to check a box that you've read and agree to the CoC before your speaking/attendance registration can go through. What do you do in those situations / do you just check those anyway or not attend?

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your premise is that, rather than free association, every group of people owes a kind of due process to everyone else, presumptive of their right to associate. Sorry, I disagree: people can decide they don't want to associate with you or me for reasons we don't find justifiable. I can throw a party and not invite you simply for writing this comment; I can start a project and not allow you to contribute. You can relat…

You inadvertently gave away the game. We can all agree that everyone has the right to be arbitrary and capricious. Codes of conduct are a formalization of expectations and rules for behavior. The are often tied (explicitly or implicitly) to an adjudication and enforcement process much more complicated than the person in charge just saying "get the fuck out". However when someone brings up the idea of improving that b…

I think in your cynicism you've totally lost all meaning and purpose of the code of conduct

It's not a piece of legalese with which you can bludgeon people to get your way (I mean it can be, but that is not and should not be the point)

When an organization has a code of conduct, it makes clear how I can complain about actions or events that occur under their jurisdiction. This is important because if you have high friction to reporting issues, issues don't get reported. [1]

What happens then? People who have legitimate grievances are the ones who stop coming around and you're left surrounded by the assholes who chased them off

The code of conduct should be cheerfully received by everyone:

1. I know that my actions are above board, because I can read what is allowed

2. I know that any actions that aren't will be reported and processed not in public (eg on Twitter) but in some sort of well-defined process

3. I know what the range of penalties can be

4. If I experience a violation caused by someone else I know how to report it

Four is arguably the most important point. Otherwise you end up with would-be coc violations adjudicated on Twitter.

[1] I'll add that it should also describe how people who receive reports respond and how the issue will be mediated. All of these steps are important. It's important for conference volunteers to know what to do when they receive a report. It's important that you know how to make a report.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#738
post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most CoCs state that discrimination based on religion is not acceptable, but don't mention political belief. Both are opinions, and I honestly don't see why one would be bigotry, but not the other. Hence the only thing I conclude is that CoCs are actually about politics, but framed in a very nice way, pretending to be based on empathy and inclusion, making them very hard to object to.

CoCs are about politics to the extent that politics affects one's ability to be empathetic. If you believe that genetics cause women to perform worse in technical roles, that will be reflected in your social behavior. To use an extreme example for the sake of discussion, would you similarly feel that excluding a skinhead with Swastika face tattoos from a scientific conference constitutes an unacceptable example of po…

> If you believe that genetics cause women to perform worse in technical roles, that will be reflected in your social behavior.

Can you expand on this, explain the connection? In particular, why the former (belief) would influence the latter (behavior)?

I firmly believe, based on overwhelming evidence, that genetics makes most people perform terribly in technical roles. Fortunately, there are a few bright, above-average exceptions that perform amazingly. If someone proves they're competent, I'll treat them competently, but at the same time it doesn't make sense to assume that the average person could be anywhere near competent.

Edit: answer to your second question: I try to be inclusive, I don't believe in drawing lines, at least not when it comes to belief (only behavior).

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#739
post #695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rebuilt? Why? Do you read the code of conduct when you attend a conference? Personally, I haven't even read the code of conduct for my job, and certainly wouldn't read one if I was speaking at or attending a conference. The CoCs are completely unnecessary and, as shown in this example, arbitrarily enforced. In the blog post I read that their CoC prohibits threats and assaults. Consider how silly that is. If someone's…

"Why should rules exist? We should just operate on intuitive feelings of what is or isn't acceptable all the time." Why NOT formalize rules to some extent? Having a hidden set of implicit mores is far worse. In fact, you can easily read this post as a pro-COC argument. After all, the author is able to make a really strong case that he didn't really infringe on any part of the COC, and that the COC was poorly construc…

> Why NOT formalize rules to some extent?

Because they will be used to lawyerize innocent people out of the organization by entryist grifters. That's what they're for, that's what they're used for.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, a CoC and a committee to enforce it are now table stakes for an open source project. Part of the reason, I believe, is because companies refuse to commit resources to open source without some assurance that the project will employ best practices to prevent discrimination, harassment, and a hostile work environment, lest the company find itself liable for such. (There's also the "good corporate citizen"…

Agree that these are table stakes, and I speak as someone whose day job is managing a team that works on a fairly large open source project which is bound by the Linux Foundation CoC. And yes you are right, it is all about the money at the end of the day. But here's the thing; if one of my devs made a gaffe at a conference, they'd have the full weight of myself and the company defending them, they definitely would no…

> But here's the thing; if one of my devs made a gaffe at a conference, they'd have the full weight of myself and the company defending them...

Maybe you are right. But this seems very surprising, the company instinct would likely be to cut loses and have that person fired to avoid further bad publicity.

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