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I Violated a Code of Conduct

fast.ai

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Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#651

Post by euler_angles »

>I have no idea what happened here – why some people decided to use a code that was, apparently, written to protect people from sexism, violence, racism, and intimidation, in this way.

"I didn't think the leopard would eat my face".

Jeremy seems like a very kind, passionate, driven, smart guy. Unfortunately I think his innate kindness and sense that people should follow the rules has failed him here. CoCs are so often wielded in this way that I'm honestly surprised that anyone believes that they'll be used otherwise.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#652

Post by freeone3000 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #559
freeone3000 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On what grounds?

Libel maybe; people can and have gotten fired over CoC violation allegations (warranted or not) and the consequent internet witch hunt; a famous case is "Donglegate". There's a dangerous trend where an accusation alone is enough to have people lose their jobs.

Libel would require the allegations be, at the very least, false, and not an opinion. It appears all factual allegations here are true (he presented the talk, he used bits from another talk, he called a speaker wrong), and everything else is an opinion based on those facts. So it's not libel.

And any improper employment termination suit would be against the employer, not a conference organizer, because in a very direct sense, it's your employer that chooses whether to fire you or not.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#653

Post by herbstein »

Aeolun wrote: post #640
herbstein wrote: post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To pencil out even further what my sibling comment mentioned; you want to be able to say "you repeatedly did x and this is explicitly against our Code of Conduct that you said you'd read before your first contribution" instead of "you're being a jerk and as such we will be refusing any contributions from you going forward". The second example is completely arbitrary, and is up to the whims of the core team - whomever…

The effect is the same though? It’s not as if a code of conduct ever contains anything that sane people don’t already know. And like some other commenter said, it basically boils down to “don’t be an asshole”.

All very true. But then you get drama about "what is an asshole". Trust me, it's not just a made up strawman argument. That happens regularly.

Breaking the Code of Conduct isn't a one-and-done thing. You talk to that person, and tell them that what they said was over the line. Be that using a slur, being increasingly insulting to another community member, or something else.

I, as an administrator, basically tell them "not cool". If their reaction is "yeah, alright" then nothing more comes of it. No citations. No three-strike rules. But if someone continually defies our reprimands we have the backing of saying "you've repeatedly been told... " and "this is written in ..." meaning nothing should come as a surprise.

It's also a way for normal users to understand what might be rule-breaking behavior. I can't observe everything happening in a community, as much as I like participating in them. Instead, I have to rely on other non-admin members reporting bad behavior. Making it clear to other users what kind of behavior they can report someone for is also super helpful - and for some people induces trust.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#654

Post by kazagistar »

pitay wrote: post #396
flamble wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has always been the case that certain behaviors incur social opprobrium. I assume that you don't literally think that shaming or punishing someone for their actions is categorically wrong, regardless of the situation. I've seen Harvey Weinstein's conviction for multiple assaults referred to as "cancelling". Are you suggesting that we should totally refrain from judgment? The real debate is over (a) what kind of co…

I always thought of cancel culture as people facing "consequences" for their opinions, rather than their actions. Although I guess the can also be applied fairly innocuous actions that don't cause much (or any) harm. The common thing with both is that it has people make mountains out of molehills. How can you trust someone that is willing to damage someone's life for something that small or non-existent, especially i…

The purpose of many opinions is to gather support for some kind of sociopolitical state, and changes or maintenence of the political status quo cause harm or maintain harm respectively. For example, if I lived in 1800 and stated the opinion that "black people deserve equal rights", it would be dangerous to and greatly financially threatening to southern landowners. The added effect of these opinions would be proven out by history. And while that opinion would turn out to help far more then it harms, other opinions like "jews undermined our army in the great war" would turn out disastrous. I would say that opinions are some of the greatest powers in the world, and calling them harmless is dishonest.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#655

Post by TeMPOraL »

euler_angles wrote: post #651

>I have no idea what happened here – why some people decided to use a code that was, apparently, written to protect people from sexism, violence, racism, and intimidation, in this way. "I didn't think the leopard would eat my face". Jeremy seems like a very kind, passionate, driven, smart guy. Unfortunately I think his innate kindness and sense that people should follow the rules has failed him here. CoCs are so ofte…

CoCs have been abused from the first moment they've appeared. I remembered the discussions years ago, people were raising warnings that this would end badly, because CoCs were primarily pushed by the abusive crowd. But the warnings were shouted down, and here we are.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#656

Post by Aeolun »

bananaface wrote: post #616
clusterfish wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They absolutely do have power over you, that's exactly the problem. People who get "canceled" don't just get a nastygram that they can throw in the trash. They are typically banned from speaking, fired / put on probation / "contract not renewed", their reputation is both privately and publicly tarnished such that #1 google result for your name will be that you were banned for CoC violation, damaging your career prosp…

The guy founded Fast.ai. I'd argue he's head and shoulders above JupyterCon. It was stupid of them to pick this battle. I think they will lose.

Since this is on HN with 700 upvotes and nearly 600 comments supporting the author I’m inclined to agree.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#657

Post by xwdv »

ikiris wrote: post #327
xwdv wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, my karma here on HN used to be at least double of what it is now. But at some point there was a change in people’s moods, and now it has been slowly eroding over time. I suspect someday it will be zero, or worse. My writing style and sharp criticisms of damn near everything hasn’t changed much, except perhaps knowing I’m going to be downvoted makes my wording more bitter. I suspect it is the HN crowd whi…

"Unfortunately “anti-racism” has been weaponized as a shortcut for silencing anyone who may at one point have said something that could be interpreted as racist or even not anti-racist enough. No thanks. Rather be labeled as a racist and keep my free speech than silenced by some mob authority." This kind of comment was not surprising to find in your history's first page.

Thanks for illustrating my point.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#658

Post by spacekitcat »

raxxorrax wrote: post #574
spacekitcat wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide a concrete example of this “political correctness” you are opposed to?

As it is popularly opposed and used it is equivalent to "Newspeak". For example we had the definition of racism changed. Racism wasn't attributing negative properties to skin color, it has extended to unfalsifiable bias. Also some skin colors are never racist while other always are. Disagreeing means you are racist. You have a rule against racism in your COC and pretend someone is biased and you conjured an excuse to…

Do you think there are negative sub conscious biases around race?

Do you think racism has the same consequences for all races, for example, someone who is a member of a minority group vs someone who is not for a particular region?

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#659

Post by Aeolun »

bcrosby95 wrote: post #192
chmod775 wrote: post #95

It was clearly a mistake for him to even play along, especially if he was emotionally exhausted already. The best you can do when people are being stupid like this is ignore them. They hold no power over you unless you let them. This whole CoC thing is sadly fraught with virtue signaling psycho-sadists who enjoy playing tribunal. The people who actually cared about fostering inclusive human communities got bullied ou…

I don't know. If I offend someone, I like to know why. Maybe there was a good reason I was blind too. I would have a difficult time refusing to "play along" unless I knew what I was rejecting.

I think I would have a very easy time rejecting any further interaction until they tell me what the problem is.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#660

Post by antihero »

lloydatkinson wrote: post #487

All "Code of Conducts" are toxic rules designed to provide SJWs (social justice warriors) with the means to "cancel" people for wrong think and/or allow them to bully people. How truly awful for this individual that this has happened, all they said was that someone's opinion is wrong and that makes them "unkind"? Absurdity. As another comment says, it's all about virtue signalling and having "power" over other people…

Imagine reading an article where the author thoughtfully points out flaws in CoC/enforcements but agrees that they have a valid purpose and using it to bash "SJWs". Go back to gab.ai or something perhaps?
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