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I Violated a Code of Conduct

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Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#621

Post by luckylion »

capableweb wrote: post #598
Hitton wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN users are not monolith. Probably most of us aren't in the Bay Area, many are not even from the USA. Many people here wouldn't give a single fuck about some twitter mob because they live in countries where people are more tolerant of opposite views (and finding out your acquaintance votes other party will get him friendly jab, not excommunication).

> where people are more tolerant of opposite views For now yeah but the tides are changing everywhere. Europe (and the US) fought facism, so we had a period of time where politics where mostly shades of purple/blue/red. Now facism is on the rise again, and we're seeing that across Europe, from Spain with Vox to Sweden with "Sweden Democrats". With the rise of these parties, you're seeing more and more of excommunicat…

"Too little cancel culture? Nonsense, we need more of it"

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#622

Post by ppf »

capableweb wrote: post #598
Hitton wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN users are not monolith. Probably most of us aren't in the Bay Area, many are not even from the USA. Many people here wouldn't give a single fuck about some twitter mob because they live in countries where people are more tolerant of opposite views (and finding out your acquaintance votes other party will get him friendly jab, not excommunication).

> where people are more tolerant of opposite views For now yeah but the tides are changing everywhere. Europe (and the US) fought facism, so we had a period of time where politics where mostly shades of purple/blue/red. Now facism is on the rise again, and we're seeing that across Europe, from Spain with Vox to Sweden with "Sweden Democrats". With the rise of these parties, you're seeing more and more of excommunicat…

I love this argument, just because it completely flips reality on its head. The intolerance that is being discussed is that of the Progressive US Left, who cannot tolerate any dissention from the current state of "politically correct" (here I use it's original definition). What you are describing is the reaction to it. It's a masterstroke of political reasoning, when you find a way to define your own shortfalls as stemming from the "other side".

Edit: I should add, it's amusing while it doesn't affect me, but the ramifications are horrifying.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#623

Post by bananaface »

pron wrote: post #506
barumi wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the piece itself seems pretty balanced and thoughtful The piece is not balanced of thoughtful. The piece is crafted to present the case in a way that's immune or resilient to typical and expectable attacks. It underlined the core failings of the concept behind a CoC, and it provides a concrete example of how people use CoCs as an oppression tool that's leveraged to manipulate and condition groups to follow the…

You realise conference organisers can do the very same thing without a code of conduct, right? That a code of conduct can be used as an "oppression tool" doesn't mean that its absence doesn't lead to even more "oppression". If you want to compare the relative merit of two things, like having a code or not, you need to consider both sides rather than just point out the perceived downsides of one.

If they do it without, they have to own the decision. The CoC provides plausible deniability that it was personal.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#624

Post by kazagistar »

bprieto wrote: post #562
jlebar wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This whole CoC thing is sadly fraught with virtue signaling psycho-sadists who enjoy playing tribunal. > > The people who actually cared about fostering inclusive human communities got bullied out of positions of power long ago, so that aforementioned people could run their own little Stasi It sounds like you include yourself in this group of people who care about building inclusive human communities? Generalizing…

> Like, it sounds like you very much do not want "those people" in your community. I absolutely do not want "those people" in any community I might be part of. They are the ones that forced RMS and Linus out of their roles. And RMS and Linus can be eccentric and unpleasant, but they have made my life much more easier through their contributions in a real and concrete way. "Those people" are worse than the people they…

Dehumanization and essentialism are dangerous ideas to be considered carefully. Have you considered that those people might be most people if in the right circumstances?

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#625

Post by herbstein »

bananaface wrote: post #602
gwd wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurators is beyond me. Because some people actually do act like jerks, and we want to be able to tell those people to either stop acting like jerks or go away. > CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Rather, Codes of Conduct are more difficult than you think. The article it…

Why do you need a Code of Conduct to prevent people acting like jerks? If someone acts like a jerk tell them to stop, and if they don't, take action. IMO you don't need it enshrined in a dodgy pseudo-contract. That's a recipe for more problems than it solves.

To pencil out even further what my sibling comment mentioned; you want to be able to say

"you repeatedly did x and this is explicitly against our Code of Conduct that you said you'd read before your first contribution"

instead of

"you're being a jerk and as such we will be refusing any contributions from you going forward".

The second example is completely arbitrary, and is up to the whims of the core team - whomever they might be. With a Code of Conduct you're (ideally) told up front what you can and cannot do. This reduces ambiguity and arbitrary decision making.

I can also tell you that a Code of Conduct isn't a change to how I personally govern the projects and communities I'm in charge of. Instead, it's about writing down what I would already remove people for anyway.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#626

Post by curiousllama »

wruza wrote: post #515

CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Any set of strict/influential laws should be supported by a proper set of institutions like courts, lawyers, arbitration, judging practice. When you have rules and just a mob, you get nothing but a mob rule of power-hungry people. Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurator…

Much of the conversation here misses the point of CoCs (and org policies in general). I've led 200+ person community orgs and helped put in governance for Fortune 500s, it's all the same - policies are an exercise in leadership, and are exactly as effective as the leadership in place.

Rules, policies, laws, Hammurabi's Code - they're all just leadership decisions made in advance. The problem here is that the leadership clearly doesn't really care. They got a complaint, they "investigated," and they moved on. Classic "governance" - totally ineffective.

After years, my favorite governance approach is still the one from a college club. It read in it's entirety: "No !ssholes." It makes clear the goal, who will be enforcing, and what to expect: The goal is no !ssholes, I will be enforcing, and I will do so by calling you an !sshole. It's just social pressure - and for anything outside of the judicial or corporate systems, that's all there is anyway.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#627

Post by jeromegv »

ppf wrote: post #622
capableweb wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where people are more tolerant of opposite views For now yeah but the tides are changing everywhere. Europe (and the US) fought facism, so we had a period of time where politics where mostly shades of purple/blue/red. Now facism is on the rise again, and we're seeing that across Europe, from Spain with Vox to Sweden with "Sweden Democrats". With the rise of these parties, you're seeing more and more of excommunicat…

I love this argument, just because it completely flips reality on its head. The intolerance that is being discussed is that of the Progressive US Left, who cannot tolerate any dissention from the current state of "politically correct" (here I use it's original definition). What you are describing is the reaction to it. It's a masterstroke of political reasoning, when you find a way to define your own shortfalls as st…

You're talking like the leader of the right in the USA was tolerant of any different viewpoint than his own viewpoint around him. He's publicly rejected and shit on people very publicly that were his allies/staff for years the moment they have a dissenting opinion. Come on, not a left or right thing.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#628

Post by Aeolun »

wruza wrote: post #515

CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Any set of strict/influential laws should be supported by a proper set of institutions like courts, lawyers, arbitration, judging practice. When you have rules and just a mob, you get nothing but a mob rule of power-hungry people. Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurator…

I don’t really follow. If you hold a talk after being invited, and the organizers receive complaints, they just don’t invite you again. I’m a bit uncertain what the speaker gains from having any further involvement in that process.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#629

Post by Deflect »

robbyoconnor wrote: post #101

I support codes of conduct but this is EXACTLY the thing that opponents point to when they oppose them. I expected this post to be a rant against codes of conduct and instead it wound up leaving me wondering if NumFOCUS and JupyterCon was in the wrong here...this guy offered criticism and that is NOT a fucking violation of ANY CoC -- if you can't handle criticism, don't make public statements. The hilarious is that J…

Where did you see he didn't care?

https://twitter.com/joelgrus/status/1321627567737069568?s=19 he said their decision was fucked up.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#630

Post by gsujsgwuaja »

dane-pgp wrote: post #494
luord wrote: post #485

It's interesting that he is so vehemently in favor of "cancel culture" given two things: The reason many people oppose it is because it often leads to completely innocent people being harassed and/or ostracized (or worse). So, in that way, his situation makes a very fitting example of many of the things wrong with cancel culture and highlights a few of the reasons why detractors oppose this kind of attack. Secondly,…

I was surprised too that he didn't see the danger of "cancel culture" after his experience. The ominous idea of "facing consequences" sounds exactly like the implication of a Mafioso saying "Nice business you have there, it would be a shame if something were to happen to it." Another example is this classic joke about the Soviet Union: Q: What is the difference between the Constitutions of the US and USSR? Both of th…

An alternative version of this joke: What's the difference between the Soviet Union and the USA?

In both countries you have freedom of speech, but in the USA you can use it more than once.

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